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and this episode of skeptico

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who really knows e.t

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[Music]

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she's passionate

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and what are they trying to tell us

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how about these cases of angels and such

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a way it seems to have a positive spin

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and he says yeah but they always end up

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sour in the end

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and not just of native american culture

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but i mean it's they're actually

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shamanic cultures going way back all

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over the world that have

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stories that relate these kind of

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elements

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we got a little bit of harrison ford

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getting dressed down by an indian chief

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in that first clip from cowboys and

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aliens and the second one is from

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today's guest print reigns who's been

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looking into ufos and et's longer than

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hope you like the interview

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welcome to skeptico where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics i'm your host alex sicaris

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and today

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we welcome brent reigns to skeptico

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if you remember a couple episodes back

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i had a chance to interview again dr bob

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davis love the guy a lot of respect for

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him

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he came on to talk about his new film on

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consciousness

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afterwards

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he sends me an email and he says hey you

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know you seem to be interested in all

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this crossover paranormal e.t ufo stuff

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have you ever heard of brent rains you

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really need to talk to this guy friend

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of mine

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wow

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i tell you you know i i started digging

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into uh

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brent stuff and i just realized how

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absolutely ignorant i am

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of these fields that i like to talk

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about

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i mean

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this guy

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amazing amazing body of work

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i don't even know how you talk about

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this body work

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40 40 plus years

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full spectrum researcher author

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excellent writer but researcher he knows

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everyone he's talked to everyone he's

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interviewed everyone he's written about

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everything

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it's just amazing you know i pulled up

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on the screen

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ap magazine.info go check that out

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there's a search

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the tagline here an alternative way to

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explore and explain the mysteries of our

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world that's pretty general

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published this is the part i want to

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draw your attention to published since

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1985 online since 2001 and if you really

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go into his work his publishing long

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before he put out this magazine so

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this is going to be

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a super

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great treat for me

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to tap into this guy's knowledge and try

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and pin things down a lot of things i'm

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interested in and the only problem is i

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have 100 questions each one could

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probably take about an hour

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to explore but

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i guess we ought to just get right to it

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brent thanks for coming on thanks so

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much for joining me

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well thanks alex uh for inviting me and

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uh wow what a what an introduction i

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hope i can live up to that and a lot of

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times i'll start out with an interview

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with someone and i'll have a list of

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things that i think we can well i've got

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a list right here to decide uh and

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and uh we might get to two of them you

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know

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it's it is so many areas that you can

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uh go into because so many things are

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uh this is a lot deeper than than a lot

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of even the ufologists themselves uh

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understand or want to believe you know

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so it's uh i've been at this actually a

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little over 55 and a half years i

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started out at age 14

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and i uh

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great great origin story

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you have to tell

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the origin story and swapping

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newsletters with

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john keel i mean

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if that doesn't blow your way right off

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the bat then

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well yeah when i started out it was uh

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you know i'd read flying saucers serious

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business by frank edwards and that was a

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very

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you know hard line nuts and bolts ct

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type

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presentation of the evidence and that

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was where he was coming from

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and so that was uh

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like many people that's where i started

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out at but uh

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as i

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you know as a young man i got really

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excited about all this i was obsessed

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and uh i still have my bouts of

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obsession

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and uh i was really intrigued by it all

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and i started to

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represent i was actually on the board of

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directors for a magazine out of

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st petersburg florida called salsa

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school which was very popular at the

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time even brad steiger was his public

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relations director and he and the editor

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john wittner used to write articles and

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some books

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together at that time

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and i noticed this uh journalist from

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new york city named john keel

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was submitting articles and they were

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very interesting and there were things

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that

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were

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way beyond

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the things that i had read in frank

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edwards book i mean these were

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paranormal things contacting a lot of

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very high strange cases as we call them

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now

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and i was quite intrigued so actually we

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initiated correspondence beginning in

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october 1969.

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again folks you're 14 years old i mean

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you initiated con initiated

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correspondence is not i have four kids

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none of mine at 14 were initiating

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correspondence with with the likes of

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john keel or anyone else who was serious

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i mean jen kill's super smart super

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this is not like ufo people who don't

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know

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or who are just so ignorant there's so

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many people are ignorant of this whole

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field they just think the guy's a kook

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the no the guy's like a genius writer

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and thinker and all the rest of this

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stuff and you're 14 years old and you're

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going to start up a correspondence with

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them great great for you

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well by that time i was about you know

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16 but you know i uh i started

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corresponding i even had a a newsletter

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at the time of my own a mimeograph

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newsletter called scientific sauceritis

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review

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and i had you know he had his newsletter

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called anomaly so we were actually

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exchanging newsletters in fact he even

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quoted sometimes out of some of my

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newsletters and if you read his first

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book that came out in 1970 strange

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creatures in time and space he lists all

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these

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bigfoot cases and strange happenings

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state by state by state and the main

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cases actually came

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out of one of my newsletters

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so anyway you know it was really quite a

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paradigm shift for me to to become

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familiar with john keel and correspond

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with him and i even asked him you know

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how can i investigate such phenomenon

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myself because i was interested in doing

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what he did keep going out on the road

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and uh going interviewing people

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and i you know wanted to know what kind

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of preparations that i

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i might need to follow and he suggested

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a a book by a man named tyrell who

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studied apparitions or wrote a book an

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apparitional phenomena he felt a lot of

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your

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ufo beings

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even the craft were often very

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apparition-like

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uh what carl young the late great swiss

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psychologist called psychoid

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and uh they're somewhere like they seem

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physical one moment and then they're

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like paraphysical or boom they just

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disappear

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uh ghost-like

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and in fact he even stated in that uh

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book strange creatures that uh

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uh

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you know aliens ghosts what's the

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difference take your pick you know and

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so i always found that idea interesting

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he even

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claimed that

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he felt you know ufology should have

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been a branch of parapsychology really

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it's it's a shame that so many people

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get locked into one discipline you know

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it's either you're a parapsychologist or

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you're a ghost hunter you're a

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you're a bigfoot hunter some sort of

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cryptid hunter or you're

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uh you're a ufologist and you know they

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they keep themselves separate from the

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other fields when really

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as keel and even jacques philly and

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others pointed out there's evidence of a

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lot of these things being crossover like

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interconnected

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and

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if we could just

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kind of put everybody's head together

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and uh compare notes and you know

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like we're doing now or you know

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so you you would think so but i i don't

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i'd love to hear your thoughts on that

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my experience is that that's not

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really the way it works it's almost like

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this this paradigm stuff when we talk

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about paradigm as if you choose your

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paradigm and i don't know that that's

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always the case i think it does seem to

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me that some people the paradigm chooses

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them again i can't get over the fact

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that brent you're this 16 year old kid i

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mean there's two ways to look at it

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one

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you are predisposed to be this

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broad thinker i mean just to be able to

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be in this world of nuts and bolts ufos

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and talking to a lot of people who are

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knowledgeable on that and then

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immediately be able to reach out into

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this other world of oh maybe there's

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this crossover i mean that's a different

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kind of person that can go there some

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people they just they just can't go

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there

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the other part of that it is the

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extended consciousness part and i was

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going to save this question towards the

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end but who cares

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do you ever think that maybe you were

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put in a place to be

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that person i mean it is a rather

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strange set of circumstances that

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brought you to

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together with all these people are you

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just

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playing out some scripted role to to be

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this conduit for all this stuff

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well i've certainly seen not only myself

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but others where you become to realize

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that

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instead of just being the guy who

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interviews experiences that you suddenly

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it turns reflective as keel had said

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and you begin to have experience or you

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notice

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unusual synchronicities uh that

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that occur and and

286
00:10:52,310 --> 00:10:49,680
and keep occurring sometimes sometimes

287
00:10:54,790 --> 00:10:52,320
it's it's uh based on some case you're

288
00:10:56,389 --> 00:10:54,800
working on or some particular

289
00:10:59,350 --> 00:10:56,399
experiencer

290
00:11:00,389 --> 00:10:59,360
and it's it kind of like like keel had

291
00:11:02,389 --> 00:11:00,399
described

292
00:11:04,470 --> 00:11:02,399
he felt sometimes the

293
00:11:05,829 --> 00:11:04,480
experience who was undergoing

294
00:11:07,590 --> 00:11:05,839
experiences that were actually

295
00:11:10,389 --> 00:11:07,600
demonstrated

296
00:11:12,710 --> 00:11:10,399
demonstrations for him to take notice of

297
00:11:15,110 --> 00:11:12,720
and you know i've i've kind of noticed

298
00:11:16,310 --> 00:11:15,120
that sort of thing myself that the

299
00:11:17,829 --> 00:11:16,320
someone would

300
00:11:18,949 --> 00:11:17,839
i would you know

301
00:11:21,110 --> 00:11:18,959
well

302
00:11:24,550 --> 00:11:21,120
let me give a for instance uh this was

303
00:11:26,790 --> 00:11:24,560
not too too long ago i was working with

304
00:11:29,110 --> 00:11:26,800
someone who's

305
00:11:32,150 --> 00:11:29,120
whose mother had had a dramatic

306
00:11:34,550 --> 00:11:32,160
experience out in texas back in

307
00:11:36,470 --> 00:11:34,560
i think about 1957

308
00:11:37,990 --> 00:11:36,480
and this really

309
00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:38,000
really uh

310
00:11:42,630 --> 00:11:40,160
changed this woman's world she

311
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:42,640
she had um

312
00:11:46,870 --> 00:11:44,560
seen uh it was late at night her husband

313
00:11:48,550 --> 00:11:46,880
was at work she was home alone usually

314
00:11:50,150 --> 00:11:48,560
she before going to bed she'll read a

315
00:11:52,949 --> 00:11:50,160
book you know and relax

316
00:11:55,990 --> 00:11:52,959
uh this night a flying saucer showed up

317
00:11:56,870 --> 00:11:56,000
outside and then this small being

318
00:11:58,310 --> 00:11:56,880
uh

319
00:12:01,509 --> 00:11:58,320
appears

320
00:12:03,509 --> 00:12:01,519
and this was not something that uh

321
00:12:05,910 --> 00:12:03,519
she ever imagined could enter her world

322
00:12:08,389 --> 00:12:05,920
you know she went and talked to a uh

323
00:12:10,150 --> 00:12:08,399
i think a local minister

324
00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:10,160
and what he said did not help her

325
00:12:13,910 --> 00:12:11,760
whatsoever

326
00:12:15,990 --> 00:12:13,920
and and after the experience she also

327
00:12:18,069 --> 00:12:16,000
developed at the psychic level

328
00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:18,079
and she had two daughters who i've been

329
00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:20,560
in touch with who uh now live fairly

330
00:12:27,030 --> 00:12:23,040
close by in the nashville area

331
00:12:28,550 --> 00:12:27,040
and they have had some ufo experiences

332
00:12:31,910 --> 00:12:28,560
themselves and

333
00:12:33,590 --> 00:12:31,920
uh as their mother did also developed at

334
00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:33,600
the psychic level

335
00:12:38,310 --> 00:12:35,360
and so

336
00:12:40,629 --> 00:12:38,320
i had had an experience back in around

337
00:12:43,509 --> 00:12:40,639
october 1975

338
00:12:45,269 --> 00:12:43,519
where i was this is kind of a long story

339
00:12:48,870 --> 00:12:45,279
but i was

340
00:12:50,389 --> 00:12:48,880
i had already been across country spent

341
00:12:51,350 --> 00:12:50,399
a lot of my

342
00:12:57,190 --> 00:12:51,360
summer

343
00:12:58,629 --> 00:12:57,200
traveling around from maine

344
00:13:01,430 --> 00:12:58,639
to florida

345
00:13:03,110 --> 00:13:01,440
and you know through pennsylvania

346
00:13:06,069 --> 00:13:03,120
ohio out into

347
00:13:08,230 --> 00:13:06,079
indiana and down through florida i mean

348
00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:08,240
down to florida through tennessee and

349
00:13:13,110 --> 00:13:10,560
alabama meeting different researchers

350
00:13:16,230 --> 00:13:13,120
experiencers and

351
00:13:17,590 --> 00:13:16,240
doing the the thing that you know

352
00:13:19,590 --> 00:13:17,600
john keel had done going through

353
00:13:20,949 --> 00:13:19,600
different states interviewing people

354
00:13:22,710 --> 00:13:20,959
and uh

355
00:13:24,550 --> 00:13:22,720
it was uh

356
00:13:25,910 --> 00:13:24,560
there was a lot of the the things that

357
00:13:28,310 --> 00:13:25,920
he had

358
00:13:30,629 --> 00:13:28,320
you know had discovered it didn't turn

359
00:13:32,790 --> 00:13:30,639
reflective right off but uh when i

360
00:13:35,829 --> 00:13:32,800
returned to maine afterwards i'm in my

361
00:13:37,910 --> 00:13:35,839
parents home and uh it's late at night

362
00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:37,920
it's a little after eleven

363
00:13:43,990 --> 00:13:41,839
and i just uh was crawling into bed

364
00:13:46,230 --> 00:13:44,000
and uh suddenly

365
00:13:48,710 --> 00:13:46,240
it's like i'm walking

366
00:13:49,910 --> 00:13:48,720
uh across the floor toward the hallway

367
00:13:51,269 --> 00:13:49,920
door

368
00:13:57,590 --> 00:13:51,279
and

369
00:14:01,590 --> 00:13:57,600
me

370
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:01,600
and uh

371
00:14:05,590 --> 00:14:03,760
you know uh ordinarily

372
00:14:07,670 --> 00:14:05,600
uh i heard someone use the expression

373
00:14:09,430 --> 00:14:07,680
once translogic i would be

374
00:14:11,030 --> 00:14:09,440
turning around and saying

375
00:14:13,590 --> 00:14:11,040
who's holding me back i didn't i

376
00:14:16,389 --> 00:14:13,600
continued to look straight ahead towards

377
00:14:20,629 --> 00:14:16,399
uh the hallway door which was open

378
00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:20,639
and the light was on there and uh

379
00:14:25,670 --> 00:14:22,959
my father was making you know

380
00:14:26,710 --> 00:14:25,680
late night pit stop to the bathroom

381
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:26,720
and

382
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:28,880
all of a sudden i'm seeing all of these

383
00:14:33,350 --> 00:14:30,560
luminous

384
00:14:37,189 --> 00:14:33,360
glowing balls of light tiny little balls

385
00:14:38,949 --> 00:14:37,199
translucent pulsating white colored

386
00:14:41,110 --> 00:14:38,959
swarming around looked like there were

387
00:14:43,750 --> 00:14:41,120
hundreds of them just swarming around

388
00:14:45,670 --> 00:14:43,760
and going down towards the floor and

389
00:14:48,310 --> 00:14:45,680
there they seem to be clustering

390
00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:48,320
together and forming like the shape of a

391
00:14:51,509 --> 00:14:50,160
four-legged animal

392
00:14:53,590 --> 00:14:51,519
and then the next thing you know i'm

393
00:14:55,030 --> 00:14:53,600
back in bed laying on my back staring at

394
00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:55,040
the ceiling which

395
00:15:00,870 --> 00:14:58,560
usually when i crawl into bed i am

396
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:00,880
i am right there under the covers i'm

397
00:15:06,069 --> 00:15:03,120
laying on my stomach or

398
00:15:08,389 --> 00:15:06,079
uh on my side you know i don't just lay

399
00:15:09,910 --> 00:15:08,399
there looking up and feeling

400
00:15:12,629 --> 00:15:09,920
and uh

401
00:15:13,990 --> 00:15:12,639
so anyway i give that that description

402
00:15:16,150 --> 00:15:14,000
so that i can

403
00:15:18,069 --> 00:15:16,160
now tell you how a few years ago i

404
00:15:19,110 --> 00:15:18,079
decided to uh

405
00:15:21,590 --> 00:15:19,120
uh

406
00:15:24,629 --> 00:15:21,600
try to do a kind of a meditation like

407
00:15:26,710 --> 00:15:24,639
carl young had had talked about a a

408
00:15:28,870 --> 00:15:26,720
technique that could be used

409
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:28,880
where you try to

410
00:15:33,350 --> 00:15:31,920
revisit some old memory or something

411
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:33,360
and uh

412
00:15:37,189 --> 00:15:35,279
so i was i

413
00:15:38,710 --> 00:15:37,199
some read some books that he

414
00:15:40,629 --> 00:15:38,720
read and where comments were made and

415
00:15:42,230 --> 00:15:40,639
did the best i could to

416
00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:42,240
to try to

417
00:15:45,670 --> 00:15:43,519
to do this

418
00:15:47,670 --> 00:15:45,680
and anyway i didn't know what i was

419
00:15:50,310 --> 00:15:47,680
fishing for exactly

420
00:15:52,150 --> 00:15:50,320
but it returned me to uh

421
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:52,160
to that bedroom

422
00:15:55,269 --> 00:15:53,360
and

423
00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:55,279
i found myself in that bed kind of

424
00:15:58,870 --> 00:15:57,120
hiding light from people who were like

425
00:16:00,310 --> 00:15:58,880
walking around the bed you know who are

426
00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:00,320
these people

427
00:16:04,629 --> 00:16:02,639
and then suddenly about the place where

428
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:04,639
i suddenly found myself stopped my

429
00:16:09,430 --> 00:16:06,880
mother who's been deceased for years

430
00:16:11,269 --> 00:16:09,440
appeared to me and told me everything

431
00:16:12,629 --> 00:16:11,279
was all right we hugged

432
00:16:14,389 --> 00:16:12,639
and uh

433
00:16:15,829 --> 00:16:14,399
and believed me in in real life shot

434
00:16:18,230 --> 00:16:15,839
them you know

435
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:18,240
i was rather upset with my obsessive

436
00:16:22,310 --> 00:16:19,680
interest in ufos you know this is

437
00:16:25,430 --> 00:16:22,320
nonsense you should move on

438
00:16:26,710 --> 00:16:25,440
but in this dream it was okay

439
00:16:28,550 --> 00:16:26,720
well

440
00:16:30,790 --> 00:16:28,560
this one particular experience of

441
00:16:33,189 --> 00:16:30,800
experiencer up in nashville

442
00:16:36,470 --> 00:16:33,199
uh this lady had written to me says i

443
00:16:38,550 --> 00:16:36,480
had a strange dream about you

444
00:16:39,590 --> 00:16:38,560
and uh

445
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:39,600
in it

446
00:16:44,949 --> 00:16:42,639
there was you and a group of people

447
00:16:47,829 --> 00:16:44,959
uh who were with you

448
00:16:49,829 --> 00:16:47,839
and my mother who passed away years ago

449
00:16:51,590 --> 00:16:49,839
who was to contact me and there seemed

450
00:16:53,269 --> 00:16:51,600
to be like some karmic connection

451
00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:53,279
something between the two but she said

452
00:16:56,629 --> 00:16:54,320
that

453
00:16:58,150 --> 00:16:56,639
everything was going to be all right uh

454
00:17:00,790 --> 00:16:58,160
and that you're you know you've been

455
00:17:02,629 --> 00:17:00,800
concerned about your wife who

456
00:17:04,870 --> 00:17:02,639
you know i had been thinking about you

457
00:17:07,909 --> 00:17:04,880
know my concern had was there about her

458
00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:07,919
uh cop condition copd

459
00:17:11,590 --> 00:17:09,760
and anyway

460
00:17:13,350 --> 00:17:11,600
uh it was just uh

461
00:17:15,110 --> 00:17:13,360
also coincidental because it turned out

462
00:17:17,270 --> 00:17:15,120
when she looked up in her diary that

463
00:17:18,870 --> 00:17:17,280
dream was the night before

464
00:17:20,789 --> 00:17:18,880
my dream

465
00:17:23,669 --> 00:17:20,799
and then afterwards

466
00:17:25,189 --> 00:17:23,679
a little later there was a

467
00:17:28,150 --> 00:17:25,199
another woman i had interviewed in the

468
00:17:30,150 --> 00:17:28,160
past who had a con a number of contact

469
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:30,160
experiences and ghost experiences the

470
00:17:35,110 --> 00:17:32,480
whole paranormal nine yards

471
00:17:37,270 --> 00:17:35,120
and she sent me a message one day saying

472
00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:37,280
uh brent i just had the strangest

473
00:17:41,830 --> 00:17:39,360
experience i got

474
00:17:43,830 --> 00:17:41,840
sunburned from a dream

475
00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:43,840
and i said okay let's talk tonight on

476
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:45,520
the phone

477
00:17:48,470 --> 00:17:46,880
and

478
00:17:50,390 --> 00:17:48,480
so i called her up

479
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:50,400
and she's telling me

480
00:17:54,310 --> 00:17:52,559
about this very strange dream where

481
00:17:56,950 --> 00:17:54,320
she's among a group of people in this

482
00:17:58,710 --> 00:17:56,960
room with all these class windows

483
00:18:00,470 --> 00:17:58,720
and

484
00:18:02,150 --> 00:18:00,480
her mother who had been dead for years

485
00:18:03,590 --> 00:18:02,160
suddenly comes to her comforts her and

486
00:18:06,070 --> 00:18:03,600
they put the rhymes around each other

487
00:18:08,390 --> 00:18:06,080
and there's this bright burst of light

488
00:18:10,390 --> 00:18:08,400
all the other people around her are like

489
00:18:12,390 --> 00:18:10,400
laying or crouched down and it's like

490
00:18:13,830 --> 00:18:12,400
the the bright light coming in the rooms

491
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:13,840
like it felt like the end of the world

492
00:18:17,350 --> 00:18:15,120
or something but she was with a mother

493
00:18:18,310 --> 00:18:17,360
and everything was going to be okay

494
00:18:19,830 --> 00:18:18,320
and

495
00:18:23,669 --> 00:18:19,840
anyway with that

496
00:18:27,110 --> 00:18:25,909
that dream i told you about we've had a

497
00:18:29,270 --> 00:18:27,120
number of

498
00:18:30,390 --> 00:18:29,280
synchronistic moments since then you

499
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:30,400
know

500
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:31,679
and uh

501
00:18:35,110 --> 00:18:33,520
that's just an example of a number of

502
00:18:37,270 --> 00:18:35,120
things that you know

503
00:18:39,190 --> 00:18:37,280
have transpired you know uh

504
00:18:41,750 --> 00:18:39,200
it just kind of

505
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:41,760
makes you wonder what's what's going on

506
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:42,720
here

507
00:18:47,669 --> 00:18:44,960
well yeah yeah don't don't downplay it

508
00:18:49,029 --> 00:18:47,679
like that i i i get what you mean you

509
00:18:51,590 --> 00:18:49,039
know what it reminded me of when you

510
00:18:54,549 --> 00:18:51,600
were telling the story remind me of

511
00:18:57,510 --> 00:18:54,559
the john kill story into your book and

512
00:18:59,590 --> 00:18:57,520
john is a pretty amazing guy you know

513
00:19:01,430 --> 00:18:59,600
the fact that you had such a long-term

514
00:19:03,270 --> 00:19:01,440
relationship with him and close

515
00:19:04,470 --> 00:19:03,280
relationship with him like you said from

516
00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:04,480
the beginning

517
00:19:09,190 --> 00:19:06,640
he recognized you recognized that you

518
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:09,200
had some talent maybe recognized in the

519
00:19:13,590 --> 00:19:11,280
grander scheme you had some role to play

520
00:19:16,070 --> 00:19:13,600
in all this so i think it's very fitting

521
00:19:18,470 --> 00:19:16,080
that you wrote this book on him but i

522
00:19:21,110 --> 00:19:18,480
love the story

523
00:19:23,909 --> 00:19:21,120
from the book where keel

524
00:19:27,190 --> 00:19:23,919
as you said is really one of the very

525
00:19:28,710 --> 00:19:27,200
first people to kind of

526
00:19:30,390 --> 00:19:28,720
just have

527
00:19:32,470 --> 00:19:30,400
not just i want to say an intuition but

528
00:19:34,470 --> 00:19:32,480
it's more than an intuition again it's

529
00:19:37,190 --> 00:19:34,480
this thing of he's just able to look at

530
00:19:38,789 --> 00:19:37,200
the data in a more objective way and say

531
00:19:40,310 --> 00:19:38,799
this stuff fits together in some way i

532
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:40,320
don't totally understand but i gotta

533
00:19:44,549 --> 00:19:42,960
start i can't silo it like

534
00:19:46,150 --> 00:19:44,559
like we're saying today so many people

535
00:19:47,669 --> 00:19:46,160
still want to silo and say oh you know

536
00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:47,679
i'm in my little thing here and ever the

537
00:19:50,789 --> 00:19:48,880
two shall meet

538
00:19:53,669 --> 00:19:50,799
and i don't want to bury the lead on the

539
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,679
story that you tell in the book but john

540
00:19:57,590 --> 00:19:55,200
keel writes

541
00:20:00,070 --> 00:19:57,600
an article for true magazine

542
00:20:01,750 --> 00:20:00,080
and you can tell the story and they call

543
00:20:03,830 --> 00:20:01,760
them over and they say hey john come

544
00:20:05,990 --> 00:20:03,840
here can you help us out that you got

545
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:06,000
some mail here and he goes in the back

546
00:20:09,510 --> 00:20:08,640
room and there's like six

547
00:20:12,870 --> 00:20:09,520
big

548
00:20:14,310 --> 00:20:12,880
bales of mail and what i take from that

549
00:20:16,310 --> 00:20:14,320
story is

550
00:20:18,710 --> 00:20:16,320
for the

551
00:20:20,549 --> 00:20:18,720
like you are let me again

552
00:20:22,789 --> 00:20:20,559
digress and but you'll pull all these

553
00:20:23,990 --> 00:20:22,799
pieces together for me i know

554
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:24,000
you are

555
00:20:27,029 --> 00:20:25,120
uh

556
00:20:28,149 --> 00:20:27,039
because you've done this level of

557
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:28,159
research

558
00:20:32,230 --> 00:20:30,080
and again you're driving around all over

559
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:32,240
the country you're talking to people you

560
00:20:35,750 --> 00:20:34,400
are somehow able to pull if anyone reads

561
00:20:36,789 --> 00:20:35,760
your interviews and i read them from a

562
00:20:38,310 --> 00:20:36,799
couple of your different books they're

563
00:20:40,310 --> 00:20:38,320
amazing i can't even get through all

564
00:20:43,909 --> 00:20:40,320
this stuff but i mean you get people to

565
00:20:46,390 --> 00:20:43,919
open up and tell you a lot of stuff

566
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:46,400
you're so deep into it now that you have

567
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:48,960
all these connections john keel was able

568
00:20:52,710 --> 00:20:50,720
to elicit that kind of reaction to

569
00:20:55,029 --> 00:20:52,720
people in his writing because no one

570
00:20:56,710 --> 00:20:55,039
else would talk about this stuff so when

571
00:20:59,190 --> 00:20:56,720
he comes out and starts talking about

572
00:21:01,830 --> 00:20:59,200
abductions starts talking about strange

573
00:21:04,870 --> 00:21:01,840
paranormal dreams ghosts and all this

574
00:21:07,110 --> 00:21:04,880
stuff he is flooded with mail and

575
00:21:09,190 --> 00:21:07,120
correspondence because there's this huge

576
00:21:11,029 --> 00:21:09,200
part of our population again this is the

577
00:21:13,669 --> 00:21:11,039
living history stuff if you're talking

578
00:21:16,470 --> 00:21:13,679
about 70s if you're talking about 80s

579
00:21:18,950 --> 00:21:16,480
even or 60s you know there is there's no

580
00:21:20,390 --> 00:21:18,960
outlet for these people they are living

581
00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:20,400
and i'm sure you have tons of stories

582
00:21:23,909 --> 00:21:22,320
about that people you just told the

583
00:21:26,950 --> 00:21:23,919
story you know someone who's troubled

584
00:21:29,750 --> 00:21:26,960
their whole life from 1957 and has no

585
00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:29,760
outlet for it goes to their local you

586
00:21:36,789 --> 00:21:30,880
know

587
00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:36,799
there is that element to this that you

588
00:21:42,470 --> 00:21:39,520
represent in terms of what you've done

589
00:21:45,110 --> 00:21:42,480
and in your book about john keel you you

590
00:21:47,510 --> 00:21:45,120
are telling how their

591
00:21:49,110 --> 00:21:47,520
this is a validation for so many people

592
00:21:51,990 --> 00:21:49,120
that they need because it's a real

593
00:21:54,390 --> 00:21:52,000
experience i know i hit on a million

594
00:21:56,630 --> 00:21:54,400
different items there but pull that

595
00:21:58,070 --> 00:21:56,640
together and tell us about that story

596
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:58,080
and tell us about it i'm sure you've

597
00:22:02,070 --> 00:22:00,080
encountered that too

598
00:22:03,909 --> 00:22:02,080
well i know that to back

599
00:22:06,549 --> 00:22:03,919
prior to we'll see when keel came into

600
00:22:08,630 --> 00:22:06,559
the field in 1966 he thought

601
00:22:10,870 --> 00:22:08,640
uh he was thinking along the e.t lines

602
00:22:13,430 --> 00:22:10,880
but before long he got out in the field

603
00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:13,440
and traveled through about 20 different

604
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:15,120
states and

605
00:22:18,950 --> 00:22:17,520
soon realized oh this is uh there's a

606
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:18,960
lot of things

607
00:22:22,710 --> 00:22:20,400
that are here that

608
00:22:24,710 --> 00:22:22,720
the mainstream of ufology isn't isn't

609
00:22:26,870 --> 00:22:24,720
paying attention to and i and it helped

610
00:22:28,710 --> 00:22:26,880
him to get away from he called a lot of

611
00:22:30,230 --> 00:22:28,720
the books on the subject cult literature

612
00:22:34,149 --> 00:22:30,240
you know they were they were misleading

613
00:22:35,590 --> 00:22:34,159
you from the the big picture and and and

614
00:22:37,909 --> 00:22:35,600
what he uh

615
00:22:39,190 --> 00:22:37,919
you know that that incident with the the

616
00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:39,200
uh

617
00:22:53,990 --> 00:22:51,750
something like who cares about the ufos

618
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:54,000
who's piloting the things and so he

619
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:55,440
wrote about some cases you know where

620
00:22:58,310 --> 00:22:57,120
people had seen the occupants or the

621
00:23:01,350 --> 00:22:58,320
beings

622
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:01,360
and uh he was uh in this flood of mail

623
00:23:04,870 --> 00:23:03,840
he got he got letters from people who

624
00:23:07,029 --> 00:23:04,880
were

625
00:23:08,470 --> 00:23:07,039
what he called silent contactees they

626
00:23:10,390 --> 00:23:08,480
had the experiences but they never had

627
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:10,400
anybody they could open up to

628
00:23:15,190 --> 00:23:12,320
and they also had missing time and at

629
00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:15,200
the time in background you know the earl

630
00:23:22,470 --> 00:23:20,640
the the 1960s 1967 1968 1969 when he was

631
00:23:24,470 --> 00:23:22,480
making all these contacts

632
00:23:27,029 --> 00:23:24,480
there was really uh

633
00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:27,039
hardly anyone in the mainstream apology

634
00:23:30,950 --> 00:23:29,440
the so-called respected ufology and of

635
00:23:32,630 --> 00:23:30,960
course he was a journalist and i think

636
00:23:34,950 --> 00:23:32,640
some of the people were upset that he

637
00:23:36,390 --> 00:23:34,960
got into the things he did

638
00:23:38,390 --> 00:23:36,400
because they expected better i mean he

639
00:23:39,909 --> 00:23:38,400
was corresponding with uh

640
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:39,919
uh coral lorenzen of the aerial

641
00:23:44,870 --> 00:23:42,480
phenomena research organization a very

642
00:23:45,750 --> 00:23:44,880
big civilian group at the time and and

643
00:23:50,070 --> 00:23:45,760
they

644
00:23:52,070 --> 00:23:50,080
advocating you know an e.t presence and

645
00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:52,080
all but kiel thought maybe this was some

646
00:23:56,710 --> 00:23:53,760
sort of earth-based

647
00:23:58,230 --> 00:23:56,720
phenomena that was related to

648
00:24:00,310 --> 00:23:58,240
all kinds of other phenomena that gone

649
00:24:02,950 --> 00:24:00,320
on for ages and ages from marion

650
00:24:05,029 --> 00:24:02,960
apparitions uh you know

651
00:24:06,789 --> 00:24:05,039
some incredible stories there and

652
00:24:08,950 --> 00:24:06,799
poltergeist manifestations he found

653
00:24:11,350 --> 00:24:08,960
frequently after someone had a close

654
00:24:14,149 --> 00:24:11,360
encounter with the ufo there would be

655
00:24:16,710 --> 00:24:14,159
a sudden development of psychic uh

656
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:16,720
phenomena in their life uh poltergeist

657
00:24:21,029 --> 00:24:19,200
manifestations noisy ghost

658
00:24:23,750 --> 00:24:21,039
they may develop some sort of psychic

659
00:24:26,070 --> 00:24:23,760
abilities themselves uh telepathy

660
00:24:28,149 --> 00:24:26,080
maybe like uri gel or psychokinesis or

661
00:24:29,510 --> 00:24:28,159
something and uh

662
00:24:31,669 --> 00:24:29,520
you know i'm going through this stuff

663
00:24:33,029 --> 00:24:31,679
and my my mind is like okay i was

664
00:24:35,029 --> 00:24:33,039
meaning to say something else and i'm

665
00:24:37,029 --> 00:24:35,039
off on this but you know i'll just go

666
00:24:38,789 --> 00:24:37,039
with the flow but you know the thing

667
00:24:41,590 --> 00:24:38,799
with keel

668
00:24:45,430 --> 00:24:41,600
when he brought it out in you know when

669
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:45,440
he did in the 1960s late 1960s 1970 and

670
00:24:49,510 --> 00:24:48,080
and the early 70s he generated some

671
00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:49,520
interest

672
00:24:51,990 --> 00:24:50,880
but uh

673
00:24:55,590 --> 00:24:52,000
it took

674
00:24:57,430 --> 00:24:55,600
really about 1987

675
00:24:58,870 --> 00:24:57,440
for the mainstream ecology to really pay

676
00:25:02,390 --> 00:24:58,880
attention to the

677
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:02,400
the abduction phenomena the missing time

678
00:25:07,190 --> 00:25:04,799
that keel tried to introduce it was bud

679
00:25:09,110 --> 00:25:07,200
hopkins and whitley strieber

680
00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:09,120
when their books came out you know and

681
00:25:13,350 --> 00:25:11,440
then foundations were created

682
00:25:16,390 --> 00:25:13,360
support groups it was the communion

683
00:25:18,870 --> 00:25:16,400
foundation the intruders foundation

684
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:18,880
and they were inundated letters after

685
00:25:23,350 --> 00:25:20,640
their books came out i think each

686
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:23,360
claimed about 4 000 letters

687
00:25:27,430 --> 00:25:24,640
and

688
00:25:29,990 --> 00:25:27,440
but it was keele who actually

689
00:25:32,149 --> 00:25:30,000
first tried to blaze that trail and uh

690
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:32,159
kind of got shut down by a lot of a lot

691
00:25:36,789 --> 00:25:33,760
of the mainstreamers

692
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:36,799
what is what is your speculation about

693
00:25:40,470 --> 00:25:38,320
that so

694
00:25:42,549 --> 00:25:40,480
again this is that lived history thing

695
00:25:44,310 --> 00:25:42,559
that i think you can do

696
00:25:45,909 --> 00:25:44,320
better than almost anybody because you

697
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:45,919
lived through all that

698
00:25:48,950 --> 00:25:47,279
because you've been in the field for a

699
00:25:50,710 --> 00:25:48,960
long time and highly connected and

700
00:25:54,470 --> 00:25:50,720
deeply in the field so

701
00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:54,480
uh bud hopkins and whitley strieber 1987

702
00:25:59,590 --> 00:25:56,880
come out of this and i remember

703
00:26:01,909 --> 00:25:59,600
not that i was really tuned into it but

704
00:26:03,350 --> 00:26:01,919
they were like laying the groundwork for

705
00:26:04,549 --> 00:26:03,360
this

706
00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:04,559
mass

707
00:26:09,750 --> 00:26:07,440
uh recovered memory thing right they go

708
00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:09,760
look we just do the numbers which people

709
00:26:13,669 --> 00:26:11,760
have done the numbers since and it does

710
00:26:15,990 --> 00:26:13,679
come up with pretty extraordinary

711
00:26:17,990 --> 00:26:16,000
numbers no matter what percentage of

712
00:26:20,630 --> 00:26:18,000
people you think have had contact

713
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:20,640
experience the numbers range in the one

714
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:23,760
percent to two or three percent range

715
00:26:27,909 --> 00:26:25,760
and that's a lot of people

716
00:26:29,990 --> 00:26:27,919
and they were like preparing that once

717
00:26:32,390 --> 00:26:30,000
this comes out this is

718
00:26:34,950 --> 00:26:32,400
and to a certain extent that did happen

719
00:26:35,990 --> 00:26:34,960
communion with that famous

720
00:26:37,830 --> 00:26:36,000
e.t

721
00:26:40,149 --> 00:26:37,840
picture and people through reports of

722
00:26:42,149 --> 00:26:40,159
people walking by the bookstore and

723
00:26:43,430 --> 00:26:42,159
falling to their knees and crying and

724
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:43,440
having these

725
00:26:49,430 --> 00:26:46,480
recovered memory kind of things

726
00:26:51,710 --> 00:26:49,440
but you gotta wonder in you lived

727
00:26:54,470 --> 00:26:51,720
through the misinformation

728
00:26:56,390 --> 00:26:54,480
disinformation thing to now where we

729
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:56,400
don't even acknowledge that that whole

730
00:27:01,590 --> 00:26:59,200
period existed where there were they

731
00:27:03,669 --> 00:27:01,600
were working so hard to keep a lid on it

732
00:27:05,510 --> 00:27:03,679
and now their work is so hard to push it

733
00:27:07,830 --> 00:27:05,520
out and they're saying no no it really

734
00:27:08,789 --> 00:27:07,840
is true and people like nah we heard

735
00:27:10,710 --> 00:27:08,799
it's all

736
00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:10,720
so i don't want to get too far afield

737
00:27:13,750 --> 00:27:11,600
though

738
00:27:15,590 --> 00:27:13,760
because the point is

739
00:27:18,389 --> 00:27:15,600
i don't think they wanted whitley to

740
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:18,399
come out in 1987. i don't think they

741
00:27:22,789 --> 00:27:20,880
wanted bud hopkins to come out just like

742
00:27:25,750 --> 00:27:22,799
they didn't want john mack to come out

743
00:27:27,350 --> 00:27:25,760
it's just these guys were just

744
00:27:30,230 --> 00:27:27,360
confident enough in themselves but

745
00:27:32,149 --> 00:27:30,240
hopkins an artist i can do anything and

746
00:27:34,149 --> 00:27:32,159
you know john mack is i'm harvard i'm

747
00:27:35,830 --> 00:27:34,159
pulitzer prize of course just come out

748
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:35,840
with the truth

749
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:38,880
that's my speculation

750
00:27:43,669 --> 00:27:41,520
how do how do you think that message was

751
00:27:45,669 --> 00:27:43,679
managed mismanaged

752
00:27:47,269 --> 00:27:45,679
surprise

753
00:27:49,190 --> 00:27:47,279
because as you're pointing out keel

754
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:49,200
didn't have a big coming out party they

755
00:27:52,950 --> 00:27:51,440
kept him under wraps

756
00:27:55,350 --> 00:27:52,960
yeah okay when i

757
00:27:57,110 --> 00:27:55,360
yeah one of the things i noticed was the

758
00:27:59,669 --> 00:27:57,120
national investigations committee on

759
00:28:02,630 --> 00:27:59,679
aerial phenomena in washington d.c a

760
00:28:05,190 --> 00:28:02,640
civilian group that uh the you know

761
00:28:06,549 --> 00:28:05,200
retired major donald kehoe

762
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:06,559
had uh

763
00:28:10,149 --> 00:28:08,799
organized in 1956 it was a major

764
00:28:12,549 --> 00:28:10,159
civilian group

765
00:28:13,830 --> 00:28:12,559
and uh he wanted to

766
00:28:15,909 --> 00:28:13,840
generate a

767
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:15,919
uh make you fall as you're respectable

768
00:28:20,549 --> 00:28:18,960
he wrote a true magazine article on ufos

769
00:28:21,990 --> 00:28:20,559
wrote a book more than one book

770
00:28:23,830 --> 00:28:22,000
eventually but

771
00:28:27,590 --> 00:28:23,840
he generated a lot of public interest

772
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:27,600
and uh he was onto the e.t bandwagon

773
00:28:31,510 --> 00:28:29,600
uh and he was fighting the air force he

774
00:28:32,870 --> 00:28:31,520
felt the air force was covering it all

775
00:28:34,950 --> 00:28:32,880
up and

776
00:28:37,190 --> 00:28:34,960
he wanted a congressional hearing where

777
00:28:39,750 --> 00:28:37,200
the evidence could be presented uh

778
00:28:41,350 --> 00:28:39,760
competently to the american people and

779
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:41,360
open this thing wide open find out what

780
00:28:45,110 --> 00:28:43,279
the government really knew

781
00:28:46,870 --> 00:28:45,120
and

782
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:46,880
ultimately in the process one of the

783
00:28:51,269 --> 00:28:49,200
things he began doing was fighting the

784
00:28:53,350 --> 00:28:51,279
reports of anyone who claimed they had a

785
00:28:55,029 --> 00:28:53,360
contact it was okay

786
00:28:56,630 --> 00:28:55,039
if a uh

787
00:28:58,950 --> 00:28:56,640
if a craft was seen by a credible

788
00:29:00,470 --> 00:28:58,960
observer but when it landed and someone

789
00:29:03,669 --> 00:29:00,480
got out

790
00:29:05,510 --> 00:29:03,679
you know

791
00:29:08,950 --> 00:29:05,520
gave some sort of positive message it

792
00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:08,960
sounded too too uh

793
00:29:12,950 --> 00:29:11,440
too out there apro was really more open

794
00:29:15,029 --> 00:29:12,960
to it they were

795
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:15,039
they allowed the beings to come out if

796
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:16,960
they acted like scientists but if they

797
00:29:21,269 --> 00:29:18,640
started preaching about

798
00:29:23,830 --> 00:29:21,279
brotherly love and uh we should

799
00:29:25,669 --> 00:29:23,840
discontinue using the atomic bombs where

800
00:29:27,669 --> 00:29:25,679
we're endangering the planet and some

801
00:29:30,230 --> 00:29:27,679
sort of you know thing it sounded too

802
00:29:32,549 --> 00:29:30,240
fictional to them so for a long time

803
00:29:33,750 --> 00:29:32,559
they wanted to suppress a lot of these

804
00:29:36,310 --> 00:29:33,760
reports of

805
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:36,320
human entity encounters

806
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:38,640
and they were doing really even though

807
00:29:44,230 --> 00:29:41,279
like nycap wanted to fight the air force

808
00:29:46,870 --> 00:29:44,240
they were often using the air force's

809
00:29:48,950 --> 00:29:46,880
you know witness you know observation

810
00:29:50,789 --> 00:29:48,960
forms to fill out and they were

811
00:29:53,029 --> 00:29:50,799
practicing pretty much the same process

812
00:29:54,549 --> 00:29:53,039
the air force was so they had a lot of

813
00:29:56,789 --> 00:29:54,559
respect for the way the air force did

814
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:56,799
they didn't uh also like the air force

815
00:30:01,190 --> 00:29:58,000
they considered

816
00:30:02,950 --> 00:30:01,200
uh reports of entities as lunatic fringe

817
00:30:05,110 --> 00:30:02,960
you know uh

818
00:30:06,549 --> 00:30:05,120
uh flying saucer missionaries different

819
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:06,559
titles that were

820
00:30:13,350 --> 00:30:09,440
given to to those those people

821
00:30:15,590 --> 00:30:13,360
and uh i think uh rosemary guyley who

822
00:30:17,029 --> 00:30:15,600
wrote thee forward to my book on keel

823
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,039
was a good friend of kiehl's and she

824
00:30:20,310 --> 00:30:19,440
said she already suspected that keel

825
00:30:22,389 --> 00:30:20,320
uh

826
00:30:24,070 --> 00:30:22,399
well she knew that he was aware that a

827
00:30:26,389 --> 00:30:24,080
lot of the experiences were somehow

828
00:30:28,389 --> 00:30:26,399
wired differently and she felt that keel

829
00:30:29,269 --> 00:30:28,399
was too it was interesting to find out

830
00:30:32,389 --> 00:30:29,279
that

831
00:30:35,590 --> 00:30:32,399
in kiel's early life like age seven

832
00:30:38,230 --> 00:30:35,600
he claimed that he had seen a with his

833
00:30:39,669 --> 00:30:38,240
uh stepfather and his mother

834
00:30:41,430 --> 00:30:39,679
riding out of the country somewhere in

835
00:30:44,070 --> 00:30:41,440
new york state had seen this big

836
00:30:45,190 --> 00:30:44,080
barn-sized spherical object rise up from

837
00:30:47,110 --> 00:30:45,200
a hilltop

838
00:30:48,789 --> 00:30:47,120
at first they thought a barn was on fire

839
00:30:50,310 --> 00:30:48,799
until it cleared the trees and then they

840
00:30:51,510 --> 00:30:50,320
could see it was this bright glowing

841
00:30:53,510 --> 00:30:51,520
sphere

842
00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:53,520
and then it just took off at

843
00:30:56,870 --> 00:30:55,440
unbelievable speed off in the distance

844
00:30:58,389 --> 00:30:56,880
and out of sight

845
00:31:00,310 --> 00:30:58,399
and also

846
00:31:01,350 --> 00:31:00,320
not far from i think his grandparents

847
00:31:04,789 --> 00:31:01,360
farm

848
00:31:07,110 --> 00:31:04,799
there was uh when he was age 10

849
00:31:09,590 --> 00:31:07,120
people were putting a gorilla

850
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:09,600
in the area and guys are you know the

851
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:11,840
farmers are getting their shotguns going

852
00:31:16,950 --> 00:31:14,320
up trying to track it down

853
00:31:19,430 --> 00:31:16,960
and as often happens with these

854
00:31:21,269 --> 00:31:19,440
bigfoot events it just suddenly stops as

855
00:31:23,029 --> 00:31:21,279
mysteriously as it began

856
00:31:25,269 --> 00:31:23,039
and so that gave him an insight into

857
00:31:27,190 --> 00:31:25,279
that it was a poltergeist phenomena he

858
00:31:28,630 --> 00:31:27,200
experienced as a young man

859
00:31:31,269 --> 00:31:28,640
and

860
00:31:33,430 --> 00:31:31,279
at age 19 he had an experience

861
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:33,440
where his there was illumination in his

862
00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:34,320
room

863
00:31:37,750 --> 00:31:36,000
and he suddenly

864
00:31:39,669 --> 00:31:37,760
had the answer to everything like the

865
00:31:40,950 --> 00:31:39,679
answers to it

866
00:31:42,710 --> 00:31:40,960
everything you want to know was just

867
00:31:43,590 --> 00:31:42,720
downloaded his brain it was a strange

868
00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:43,600
glow

869
00:31:47,669 --> 00:31:45,760
and then the next morning it was like he

870
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:47,679
could only remember fragments of it you

871
00:31:50,789 --> 00:31:48,559
know

872
00:31:52,389 --> 00:31:50,799
uh so i think that those early

873
00:31:53,350 --> 00:31:52,399
experiences

874
00:31:55,029 --> 00:31:53,360
um

875
00:31:57,190 --> 00:31:55,039
gave him some

876
00:31:59,190 --> 00:31:57,200
some insight

877
00:32:00,389 --> 00:31:59,200
once he made that connection you know

878
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:00,399
because he went from

879
00:32:05,110 --> 00:32:03,440
himself thinking e.t in 66

880
00:32:07,029 --> 00:32:05,120
and then going around the country and

881
00:32:08,549 --> 00:32:07,039
hearing all these stories about

882
00:32:11,029 --> 00:32:08,559
these other phenomena that would happen

883
00:32:12,710 --> 00:32:11,039
to the ufo experiences and i think that

884
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:12,720
helped him to connect the dots it's all

885
00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:14,880
about connecting the dots as you go

886
00:32:18,470 --> 00:32:16,159
along

887
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:18,480
so brent what do you think about how

888
00:32:22,070 --> 00:32:20,559
they've managed the narrative you kind

889
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,080
of gave part of the story part of the

890
00:32:26,070 --> 00:32:24,240
history but then the story changes and

891
00:32:27,789 --> 00:32:26,080
there's a complete lockdown complete

892
00:32:29,509 --> 00:32:27,799
denial then there's the whole

893
00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:29,519
disinformation

894
00:32:34,470 --> 00:32:31,320
misinformation there's the pretty

895
00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:34,480
aggressively going after people who

896
00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:36,640
report anything will kill you you will

897
00:32:43,029 --> 00:32:39,760
kill your family kind of stuff and then

898
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:43,039
2017 there's disclosure here's a 10 year

899
00:32:47,430 --> 00:32:45,440
old video and i interviewed kevin day

900
00:32:49,350 --> 00:32:47,440
who was on board the ship it was in his

901
00:32:52,070 --> 00:32:49,360
email the next day

902
00:32:54,389 --> 00:32:52,080
but suddenly eight years later it's

903
00:32:56,950 --> 00:32:54,399
new york times headline news

904
00:32:59,190 --> 00:32:56,960
what's your general feeling about

905
00:33:01,830 --> 00:32:59,200
how they've handled

906
00:33:04,789 --> 00:33:01,840
this narrative what's ba what is their

907
00:33:06,710 --> 00:33:04,799
agenda in trying to manage this

908
00:33:08,549 --> 00:33:06,720
and what have you seen what what has it

909
00:33:10,230 --> 00:33:08,559
been like for you to live through that

910
00:33:11,590 --> 00:33:10,240
and live through you know they poisoned

911
00:33:13,909 --> 00:33:11,600
the well of the

912
00:33:15,830 --> 00:33:13,919
ufo community did you get caught up in

913
00:33:18,310 --> 00:33:15,840
that at all there's a million questions

914
00:33:21,110 --> 00:33:18,320
there well i i really thought back

915
00:33:24,149 --> 00:33:21,120
around the mid 70s that you know i was i

916
00:33:27,029 --> 00:33:24,159
was seeing a lot of alternative um

917
00:33:28,630 --> 00:33:27,039
activity going on and and these things

918
00:33:30,149 --> 00:33:28,640
that keel addressed

919
00:33:31,509 --> 00:33:30,159
others were taken more and more

920
00:33:34,070 --> 00:33:31,519
seriously and at one point in an

921
00:33:37,029 --> 00:33:34,080
interview with tim beckley tim beckley

922
00:33:39,750 --> 00:33:37,039
congratulated john keel for his victory

923
00:33:41,350 --> 00:33:39,760
in i think largely writing in a magazine

924
00:33:43,509 --> 00:33:41,360
that had an international audience out

925
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:43,519
of england called flying saucer review

926
00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:45,600
for making a lot of other researchers

927
00:33:50,710 --> 00:33:48,720
aware of the the paranormal psychic uh

928
00:33:52,789 --> 00:33:50,720
aspect of ufology which was an

929
00:33:55,029 --> 00:33:52,799
accomplishment itself

930
00:33:57,269 --> 00:33:55,039
and he'll resp you know didn't take a a

931
00:33:59,269 --> 00:33:57,279
victory laugh he said no actually it's

932
00:34:01,830 --> 00:33:59,279
kind of a hollow victory it's it's like

933
00:34:03,430 --> 00:34:01,840
opening pandora's box he says we've only

934
00:34:05,830 --> 00:34:03,440
made you know by doing this the

935
00:34:08,149 --> 00:34:05,840
situation we discover is only much more

936
00:34:10,470 --> 00:34:08,159
complicated than we originally believed

937
00:34:12,790 --> 00:34:10,480
so i mean it's you know and it seemed

938
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:12,800
like back in the 70s i really thought

939
00:34:19,750 --> 00:34:15,520
okay you got a parapsychologist named d

940
00:34:21,990 --> 00:34:19,760
scott rogo who is uh you know writing

941
00:34:24,310 --> 00:34:22,000
in the you know writing about all the

942
00:34:27,030 --> 00:34:24,320
things going on in ufology he uh

943
00:34:30,149 --> 00:34:27,040
co-wrote a book with uh ann truffalo in

944
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:30,159
california on some abduction cases out

945
00:34:35,349 --> 00:34:32,639
in that state that uh several women

946
00:34:37,510 --> 00:34:35,359
and he was putting a paranormal uh

947
00:34:41,510 --> 00:34:37,520
you know parapsychological spin on some

948
00:34:42,950 --> 00:34:41,520
of that and he actually wrote uh helped

949
00:34:46,069 --> 00:34:42,960
turned out it was his distant cousin

950
00:34:49,270 --> 00:34:46,079
jeffrey mishlov uh of new thinking aloud

951
00:34:52,230 --> 00:34:49,280
who wrote the book the pk man contactee

952
00:34:54,230 --> 00:34:52,240
named ted owens who uh

953
00:34:56,069 --> 00:34:54,240
who was a quite an interesting character

954
00:34:58,550 --> 00:34:56,079
and could uh

955
00:35:01,190 --> 00:34:58,560
actually you know

956
00:35:06,870 --> 00:35:04,150
the two of them you know jeffrey and and

957
00:35:09,670 --> 00:35:06,880
and uh jeffrey mishloven and d scott

958
00:35:11,190 --> 00:35:09,680
rubler they they penned down a lot of uh

959
00:35:12,790 --> 00:35:11,200
a lot of testimonials from i think

960
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:12,800
around 100 people

961
00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:15,520
who said they had actually witnessed

962
00:35:18,710 --> 00:35:17,760
ufos they'd actually

963
00:35:20,790 --> 00:35:18,720
seen

964
00:35:22,150 --> 00:35:20,800
owens make incredible predictions that

965
00:35:24,310 --> 00:35:22,160
come true even

966
00:35:27,030 --> 00:35:24,320
jeff michelle's has michelob has his own

967
00:35:29,750 --> 00:35:27,040
stories on that score and even seen him

968
00:35:31,910 --> 00:35:29,760
go out and say i'm going to make a

969
00:35:33,190 --> 00:35:31,920
lightning bolt during a storm

970
00:35:36,069 --> 00:35:33,200
strike the

971
00:35:37,589 --> 00:35:36,079
strike that building over there and

972
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:37,599
and that was the only lightning bolt i

973
00:35:41,670 --> 00:35:39,599
saw was the one that struck the building

974
00:35:43,750 --> 00:35:41,680
and he did that more than once so i mean

975
00:35:45,750 --> 00:35:43,760
it's uh i really thought okay you know

976
00:35:46,710 --> 00:35:45,760
uh there's an awakening going on and

977
00:35:48,950 --> 00:35:46,720
then

978
00:35:50,550 --> 00:35:48,960
people started pushing roswell's in area

979
00:35:53,030 --> 00:35:50,560
51 and it's like whoa whoa whoa where

980
00:35:55,910 --> 00:35:53,040
are we going now yeah

981
00:35:57,910 --> 00:35:55,920
and and so i i see some some some people

982
00:35:59,829 --> 00:35:57,920
now who are it seems quite promising

983
00:36:00,870 --> 00:35:59,839
they're looking at this whole peri ufo

984
00:36:03,589 --> 00:36:00,880
realm but

985
00:36:06,630 --> 00:36:03,599
i don't know i don't know that it's

986
00:36:08,950 --> 00:36:06,640
going to be enough to break through the

987
00:36:09,670 --> 00:36:08,960
the the barrier that currently exists

988
00:36:11,190 --> 00:36:09,680
so

989
00:36:14,150 --> 00:36:11,200
that's what i'm asking though you're not

990
00:36:16,870 --> 00:36:14,160
answering what is the barrier

991
00:36:18,230 --> 00:36:16,880
what is the barrier i mean we are

992
00:36:20,230 --> 00:36:18,240
going through

993
00:36:23,750 --> 00:36:20,240
right now we have to deal with tom

994
00:36:25,270 --> 00:36:23,760
delong and uh lou elizondo

995
00:36:28,950 --> 00:36:25,280
i mean i always i hammer on this and

996
00:36:31,190 --> 00:36:28,960
people don't care but lou elizondo

997
00:36:33,030 --> 00:36:31,200
richard doty 2.0

998
00:36:35,910 --> 00:36:33,040
you know behind the curtain strawberry

999
00:36:37,150 --> 00:36:35,920
ice cream lou elizondo

1000
00:36:38,710 --> 00:36:37,160
right uh

1001
00:36:40,310 --> 00:36:38,720
counterintelligence

1002
00:36:41,589 --> 00:36:40,320
that's the guy who's going to tell us

1003
00:36:44,710 --> 00:36:41,599
the truth

1004
00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:44,720
him and peter lavender peter lavender

1005
00:36:49,349 --> 00:36:47,440
peter lavender very kind of interesting

1006
00:36:51,270 --> 00:36:49,359
past very spooky

1007
00:36:53,030 --> 00:36:51,280
related so they're going to come out and

1008
00:36:55,190 --> 00:36:53,040
they're going to say hey

1009
00:36:58,390 --> 00:36:55,200
we gotta find we gotta get to the bottom

1010
00:37:00,390 --> 00:36:58,400
of this let's go talk to the ci i mean

1011
00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:00,400
the whole thing if you step back like

1012
00:37:04,550 --> 00:37:02,560
you're laughing well come on why are we

1013
00:37:06,550 --> 00:37:04,560
laughing and why is it

1014
00:37:08,870 --> 00:37:06,560
why are most people not laughing most

1015
00:37:11,829 --> 00:37:08,880
people are like really what it what did

1016
00:37:14,470 --> 00:37:11,839
lou say on his twitter today i mean you

1017
00:37:16,150 --> 00:37:14,480
lived through all this over and

1018
00:37:17,910 --> 00:37:16,160
over again

1019
00:37:19,589 --> 00:37:17,920
yeah you can't uh

1020
00:37:20,950 --> 00:37:19,599
you can't just put all your eggs into

1021
00:37:23,589 --> 00:37:20,960
one basket

1022
00:37:26,230 --> 00:37:23,599
and uh probably one of the only one of

1023
00:37:28,550 --> 00:37:26,240
the biggest things to me was was like

1024
00:37:30,630 --> 00:37:28,560
strangers strangers the pentagon with

1025
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:30,640
all of you know the bigelow

1026
00:37:35,750 --> 00:37:33,760
uh site there the skinwalker ranch and

1027
00:37:38,790 --> 00:37:35,760
the fact that what they were describing

1028
00:37:43,670 --> 00:37:41,349
telling about and presumably very

1029
00:37:45,670 --> 00:37:43,680
credible observers attesting to the fact

1030
00:37:47,349 --> 00:37:45,680
they've seen and interacted with some

1031
00:37:48,630 --> 00:37:47,359
sort of pair of

1032
00:37:50,630 --> 00:37:48,640
parasitic

1033
00:37:53,829 --> 00:37:50,640
entities or whatever paranormal events

1034
00:37:55,430 --> 00:37:53,839
going on and ufo and then it turns

1035
00:37:57,750 --> 00:37:55,440
reflective and they're having

1036
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:57,760
poltergeist phenomena and apparitions at

1037
00:38:02,390 --> 00:37:58,560
their

1038
00:38:03,510 --> 00:38:02,400
and kids are suddenly involved you know

1039
00:38:06,310 --> 00:38:03,520
back in

1040
00:38:07,829 --> 00:38:06,320
virginia or wherever they live and uh

1041
00:38:09,430 --> 00:38:07,839
i thought yeah they call it the

1042
00:38:11,829 --> 00:38:09,440
hitchhiker effect but really that's what

1043
00:38:14,710 --> 00:38:11,839
keel called the reflective phenomena

1044
00:38:16,150 --> 00:38:14,720
and they're confirming that i know other

1045
00:38:18,069 --> 00:38:16,160
people i'm not sure where they're headed

1046
00:38:19,349 --> 00:38:18,079
with this but i know there's a lot of

1047
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:19,359
people who are trying to figure out the

1048
00:38:24,550 --> 00:38:22,320
propulsion system i think it's a little

1049
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:24,560
you know that's still way on out there

1050
00:38:28,710 --> 00:38:26,880
but you know i think everybody

1051
00:38:30,550 --> 00:38:28,720
is entitled and needs to look whatever

1052
00:38:32,550 --> 00:38:30,560
aspect they need to but let's not all

1053
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:32,560
jump on the same bandwagon and just say

1054
00:38:36,069 --> 00:38:34,560
ah this is it you know

1055
00:38:39,270 --> 00:38:36,079
and this is where

1056
00:38:42,069 --> 00:38:39,280
yeah there i i hear you there but i keep

1057
00:38:43,589 --> 00:38:42,079
kind of i'm gonna i'm gonna press you a

1058
00:38:45,190 --> 00:38:43,599
little bit on this

1059
00:38:46,390 --> 00:38:45,200
because like the skin walker thing is

1060
00:38:48,870 --> 00:38:46,400
super interesting

1061
00:38:50,950 --> 00:38:48,880
somebody go read

1062
00:38:54,150 --> 00:38:50,960
go read brent's book let me pull up the

1063
00:38:56,150 --> 00:38:54,160
book this one that i read

1064
00:38:58,230 --> 00:38:56,160
go read this one

1065
00:39:00,630 --> 00:38:58,240
on the edge of reality dreamweaver it's

1066
00:39:03,030 --> 00:39:00,640
the mastering of space and time

1067
00:39:04,710 --> 00:39:03,040
all sorts of accounts of dreamweavers uh

1068
00:39:06,790 --> 00:39:04,720
skin walkers right

1069
00:39:08,790 --> 00:39:06,800
i mean you you've had we haven't even

1070
00:39:11,589 --> 00:39:08,800
talked about this because there's so

1071
00:39:15,430 --> 00:39:11,599
much more to talk about but you've been

1072
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:15,440
very very interested in the shamanic

1073
00:39:19,910 --> 00:39:17,920
native american traditions and they're

1074
00:39:20,710 --> 00:39:19,920
telling these stories

1075
00:39:22,150 --> 00:39:20,720
and

1076
00:39:24,630 --> 00:39:22,160
it's out of you telling their stories

1077
00:39:26,710 --> 00:39:24,640
their lived experience with

1078
00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:26,720
these encounters and how they're even

1079
00:39:31,589 --> 00:39:28,400
interwoven in their direct experience

1080
00:39:33,510 --> 00:39:31,599
like no my cousin went out and was

1081
00:39:36,069 --> 00:39:33,520
missing for four days and came back and

1082
00:39:39,270 --> 00:39:36,079
said this kind of thing or we all as a

1083
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:39,280
community saw you know these four eagles

1084
00:39:43,109 --> 00:39:41,200
and then they turned into

1085
00:39:45,910 --> 00:39:43,119
spaceships and stuff and then there was

1086
00:39:48,630 --> 00:39:45,920
this shape-shifting beast that you know

1087
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:48,640
you have to be very fearful of because

1088
00:39:53,349 --> 00:39:51,599
they have stolen children before and

1089
00:39:55,109 --> 00:39:53,359
so

1090
00:39:58,310 --> 00:39:55,119
again folks like i said at the beginning

1091
00:40:00,710 --> 00:39:58,320
this is going to sound scattered but

1092
00:40:03,349 --> 00:40:00,720
go look into brent stuff there's a

1093
00:40:04,790 --> 00:40:03,359
million a million different things to to

1094
00:40:07,349 --> 00:40:04,800
pull on here so i don't know if we want

1095
00:40:10,230 --> 00:40:07,359
to pivot over there but

1096
00:40:12,309 --> 00:40:10,240
we can't before i nail you down on the

1097
00:40:15,030 --> 00:40:12,319
what's going on what's going on with

1098
00:40:17,510 --> 00:40:15,040
this so-called disclosure they are again

1099
00:40:19,910 --> 00:40:17,520
trying to control the narrative in an

1100
00:40:21,910 --> 00:40:19,920
obvious way you know and it's like you

1101
00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:21,920
know you know grant cameron and you know

1102
00:40:26,550 --> 00:40:24,720
those guys and you know can't can't

1103
00:40:27,990 --> 00:40:26,560
grant cameron this is another topic to

1104
00:40:30,550 --> 00:40:28,000
talk about

1105
00:40:32,630 --> 00:40:30,560
those guys have gone overboard on the

1106
00:40:34,390 --> 00:40:32,640
consciousness thing and i wonder what

1107
00:40:37,030 --> 00:40:34,400
your conversations are when you talk

1108
00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:37,040
about the goody tea baddie t the demonic

1109
00:40:41,430 --> 00:40:39,040
the evil however you do that i'm not a

1110
00:40:43,109 --> 00:40:41,440
religious person but why are we leaving

1111
00:40:45,349 --> 00:40:43,119
that out of the equation i mean the

1112
00:40:47,990 --> 00:40:45,359
space brothers thing plays great to a

1113
00:40:50,390 --> 00:40:48,000
certain extent but it don't play great

1114
00:40:53,030 --> 00:40:50,400
when they're raping your wife you know i

1115
00:40:54,950 --> 00:40:53,040
mean that's that well uh you informed

1116
00:40:57,670 --> 00:40:54,960
consent at a different level in a

1117
00:41:00,069 --> 00:40:57,680
previous life i don't that doesn't

1118
00:41:02,069 --> 00:41:00,079
that doesn't fly for most people

1119
00:41:04,230 --> 00:41:02,079
so what is going on what is going on

1120
00:41:05,829 --> 00:41:04,240
with disclosure why would we trust these

1121
00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:05,839
people the reason i brought up greg

1122
00:41:09,670 --> 00:41:07,680
cameron of course is because

1123
00:41:12,470 --> 00:41:09,680
he references the wilbert smith memo

1124
00:41:14,309 --> 00:41:12,480
from back in the 50s when they go hey

1125
00:41:15,990 --> 00:41:14,319
this is the most you know from the

1126
00:41:17,589 --> 00:41:16,000
canadians come down and write a memo

1127
00:41:19,589 --> 00:41:17,599
back that gets released in the fruit of

1128
00:41:21,750 --> 00:41:19,599
information they say mean you know all

1129
00:41:24,390 --> 00:41:21,760
this stuff they say this is the highest

1130
00:41:26,790 --> 00:41:24,400
priority thing in the united states

1131
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:26,800
higher than the hydrogen bomb and by the

1132
00:41:30,950 --> 00:41:27,599
way

1133
00:41:33,510 --> 00:41:30,960
there is this mental phenomenon aspect

1134
00:41:36,230 --> 00:41:33,520
that they're very interested in hello

1135
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:36,240
john keel hello john mack

1136
00:41:40,390 --> 00:41:38,000
they saw it from the beginning they've

1137
00:41:43,270 --> 00:41:40,400
investigated from the beginning why do

1138
00:41:45,750 --> 00:41:43,280
we take this spoon feeding that they try

1139
00:41:47,349 --> 00:41:45,760
and give us of showing a video here or

1140
00:41:50,309 --> 00:41:47,359
that what

1141
00:41:51,670 --> 00:41:50,319
what agenda do they have our united

1142
00:41:53,910 --> 00:41:51,680
states

1143
00:41:56,630 --> 00:41:53,920
government has in this latest round of

1144
00:41:58,630 --> 00:41:56,640
disclosure brent i'm nailing you down

1145
00:42:00,870 --> 00:41:58,640
what is their agenda

1146
00:42:05,349 --> 00:42:00,880
well

1147
00:42:07,430 --> 00:42:05,359
levels top secret security level with

1148
00:42:08,790 --> 00:42:07,440
the government but i

1149
00:42:11,430 --> 00:42:08,800
i will say

1150
00:42:13,109 --> 00:42:11,440
you know uh it is a whole different

1151
00:42:15,030 --> 00:42:13,119
position that you know where we're

1152
00:42:16,630 --> 00:42:15,040
hearing these days then back in the

1153
00:42:18,309 --> 00:42:16,640
early days when it was there's no threat

1154
00:42:20,230 --> 00:42:18,319
to national security

1155
00:42:21,910 --> 00:42:20,240
uh and uh

1156
00:42:23,750 --> 00:42:21,920
there's no evidence no sufficient

1157
00:42:26,309 --> 00:42:23,760
evidence proved this is anything

1158
00:42:28,390 --> 00:42:26,319
extraterrestrial and now they're not

1159
00:42:29,910 --> 00:42:28,400
saying it's extraterrestrial but they

1160
00:42:31,670 --> 00:42:29,920
they leave the door open slightly you

1161
00:42:33,430 --> 00:42:31,680
know that maybe it is their their

1162
00:42:35,109 --> 00:42:33,440
concern being that it is a threat to

1163
00:42:37,270 --> 00:42:35,119
national security because

1164
00:42:38,630 --> 00:42:37,280
there are craft and things in our skies

1165
00:42:40,550 --> 00:42:38,640
we don't identify and they're doing

1166
00:42:42,630 --> 00:42:40,560
things that seem

1167
00:42:44,309 --> 00:42:42,640
extraordinary now i just but hold on

1168
00:42:47,430 --> 00:42:44,319
hold on don't you think they're saying

1169
00:42:49,829 --> 00:42:47,440
e.t they might not be using e.t but

1170
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:49,839
they're saying e.t all over the place

1171
00:42:53,829 --> 00:42:52,160
and they're saying skinwalker ranch too

1172
00:42:56,150 --> 00:42:53,839
they're pushing that narrative out at

1173
00:42:58,150 --> 00:42:56,160
the same time they want you to let you

1174
00:43:00,470 --> 00:42:58,160
know that all this stuff you've been

1175
00:43:02,470 --> 00:43:00,480
talking about really is connected but

1176
00:43:04,150 --> 00:43:02,480
the you know they just released the dump

1177
00:43:06,069 --> 00:43:04,160
to all the you know all this stuff but

1178
00:43:07,750 --> 00:43:06,079
they released a bunch of documents on

1179
00:43:10,069 --> 00:43:07,760
the genetic

1180
00:43:12,150 --> 00:43:10,079
manipulation stuff pregnancy stuff and

1181
00:43:14,550 --> 00:43:12,160
stuff like that so anyone who's really

1182
00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:14,560
paying attention yeah they're not just

1183
00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:16,960
trying to do the oh there's things in

1184
00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:19,520
the sky thing

1185
00:43:25,910 --> 00:43:24,790
yeah i was just talking with with greg

1186
00:43:28,150 --> 00:43:25,920
little you know i've been working with

1187
00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:28,160
him since 85 was

1188
00:43:32,069 --> 00:43:30,560
with uh my magazine and on many

1189
00:43:34,550 --> 00:43:32,079
different projects and he just came out

1190
00:43:37,270 --> 00:43:34,560
with a booklet by uh andrew collins

1191
00:43:39,829 --> 00:43:37,280
called origins of the gods which is a

1192
00:43:41,910 --> 00:43:39,839
a real uh great book and if you can

1193
00:43:43,829 --> 00:43:41,920
interview either of those two or both

1194
00:43:45,829 --> 00:43:43,839
uh talking about that uh they look at

1195
00:43:47,030 --> 00:43:45,839
the shamans they look at the modern ufo

1196
00:43:49,910 --> 00:43:47,040
phenomenon

1197
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:49,920
uh all of this quite deeply uh they're

1198
00:43:52,870 --> 00:43:51,359
also both

1199
00:43:55,430 --> 00:43:52,880
like myself had their own past

1200
00:43:57,270 --> 00:43:55,440
interactions with keel and

1201
00:43:58,230 --> 00:43:57,280
all helium students i guess you could

1202
00:44:00,950 --> 00:43:58,240
say

1203
00:44:03,109 --> 00:44:00,960
and and so a lot of their uh

1204
00:44:04,950 --> 00:44:03,119
their research investigations have uh

1205
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:04,960
always had a keel in the back of their

1206
00:44:09,510 --> 00:44:07,520
mind too but greg had said that you know

1207
00:44:11,510 --> 00:44:09,520
this whole thing with uh and it's it's

1208
00:44:13,670 --> 00:44:11,520
in a recent interview that's on my my

1209
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:13,680
site for the september issue of ap

1210
00:44:17,030 --> 00:44:15,200
magazine.info

1211
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:17,040
i was interviewing greg

1212
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:18,960
uh about uh a variety of different

1213
00:44:22,630 --> 00:44:20,880
phenomena and he brought up on you know

1214
00:44:24,309 --> 00:44:22,640
about these navy sightings and a lot of

1215
00:44:25,430 --> 00:44:24,319
what they're seeing is in the infrared

1216
00:44:26,870 --> 00:44:25,440
range

1217
00:44:29,030 --> 00:44:26,880
and uh

1218
00:44:31,430 --> 00:44:29,040
he's thinking that maybe this was a

1219
00:44:33,910 --> 00:44:31,440
black ops project

1220
00:44:36,390 --> 00:44:33,920
and that uh they were able to you know

1221
00:44:37,990 --> 00:44:36,400
like taking a flashlight and able to

1222
00:44:40,150 --> 00:44:38,000
maneuver something this way and that way

1223
00:44:42,630 --> 00:44:40,160
making it appear like what you're seeing

1224
00:44:44,390 --> 00:44:42,640
in the infrared is actually uh

1225
00:44:47,430 --> 00:44:44,400
going at this tremendous speed when

1226
00:44:49,510 --> 00:44:47,440
actually it's it's uh

1227
00:44:50,470 --> 00:44:49,520
perhaps some sort of a plasma type thing

1228
00:44:52,710 --> 00:44:50,480
or something

1229
00:44:53,990 --> 00:44:52,720
and it's not really

1230
00:44:55,270 --> 00:44:54,000
you know

1231
00:44:56,309 --> 00:44:55,280
so i don't know

1232
00:44:58,710 --> 00:44:56,319
i don't know about that but i

1233
00:45:01,190 --> 00:44:58,720
interviewed kevin day i just mentioned a

1234
00:45:02,870 --> 00:45:01,200
minute ago and he was the uh do you know

1235
00:45:05,990 --> 00:45:02,880
who kevin day is

1236
00:45:09,190 --> 00:45:06,000
was he one of the uh the pilots or

1237
00:45:11,829 --> 00:45:09,200
he was actually the the radar operator

1238
00:45:13,430 --> 00:45:11,839
so he was directing the pilots and his

1239
00:45:15,589 --> 00:45:13,440
story is really kind of interesting in a

1240
00:45:17,589 --> 00:45:15,599
couple of respects because

1241
00:45:19,190 --> 00:45:17,599
number one

1242
00:45:20,870 --> 00:45:19,200
i like the term you used i can't

1243
00:45:23,349 --> 00:45:20,880
remember it but i always think of ray

1244
00:45:25,510 --> 00:45:23,359
hernandez in the thing where his wife is

1245
00:45:27,670 --> 00:45:25,520
like this dramatic

1246
00:45:28,950 --> 00:45:27,680
quasi-spiritual experience with an et he

1247
00:45:31,510 --> 00:45:28,960
walks down the stairs and he gets

1248
00:45:34,150 --> 00:45:31,520
halfway downstairs he goes oh there's

1249
00:45:36,390 --> 00:45:34,160
nothing going on here i should go up and

1250
00:45:38,870 --> 00:45:36,400
go back to bed which you are walking

1251
00:45:41,109 --> 00:45:38,880
down the hallway and you're seeing these

1252
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:41,119
lights you're like oh nothing going on

1253
00:45:44,630 --> 00:45:43,200
here or go back to bed well

1254
00:45:46,950 --> 00:45:44,640
in in

1255
00:45:49,990 --> 00:45:46,960
the case of kevin day

1256
00:45:52,710 --> 00:45:50,000
he is the guy in charge he is top gun

1257
00:45:55,270 --> 00:45:52,720
guy running all the radar and really

1258
00:45:57,910 --> 00:45:55,280
running all the planes that go up

1259
00:46:00,790 --> 00:45:57,920
they're on this operation for a week

1260
00:46:01,750 --> 00:46:00,800
these objects are trailing them for a

1261
00:46:03,589 --> 00:46:01,760
week

1262
00:46:05,829 --> 00:46:03,599
he later remembers

1263
00:46:07,829 --> 00:46:05,839
and i asked him i said

1264
00:46:11,430 --> 00:46:07,839
kevin don't you think it's curious that

1265
00:46:14,390 --> 00:46:11,440
you didn't go to your co before that

1266
00:46:16,309 --> 00:46:14,400
and there's a long pause he goes yeah

1267
00:46:18,550 --> 00:46:16,319
that is kind of strange

1268
00:46:21,589 --> 00:46:18,560
i mean it's beyond strange it's green

1269
00:46:24,150 --> 00:46:21,599
memories strange you are running this

1270
00:46:26,470 --> 00:46:24,160
major drill out the ocean with all these

1271
00:46:28,710 --> 00:46:26,480
ships and you see these things and

1272
00:46:29,829 --> 00:46:28,720
they're keeping right alongside you for

1273
00:46:31,829 --> 00:46:29,839
days

1274
00:46:33,430 --> 00:46:31,839
you know and you don't do anything and

1275
00:46:34,870 --> 00:46:33,440
then the other part of it that i thought

1276
00:46:36,550 --> 00:46:34,880
is interesting and maybe you remember

1277
00:46:38,710 --> 00:46:36,560
this from the case or not but there's

1278
00:46:40,390 --> 00:46:38,720
this mental phenomenon thing like they

1279
00:46:42,870 --> 00:46:40,400
have this

1280
00:46:46,470 --> 00:46:42,880
meeting point in the sky that they'll go

1281
00:46:48,950 --> 00:46:46,480
right and they go there and there's e.t

1282
00:46:50,790 --> 00:46:48,960
so yeah waiting on them

1283
00:46:52,069 --> 00:46:50,800
so there's something going on at this

1284
00:46:54,309 --> 00:46:52,079
other realm and then the final thing

1285
00:46:57,030 --> 00:46:54,319
about kevin day's story is he has the

1286
00:46:58,390 --> 00:46:57,040
valet davis effect he is devastated

1287
00:47:01,430 --> 00:46:58,400
after this in a way that he doesn't even

1288
00:47:03,670 --> 00:47:01,440
know he comes back to san diego and he

1289
00:47:05,670 --> 00:47:03,680
winds up going to the va and says i

1290
00:47:07,670 --> 00:47:05,680
don't know what this is a post-traumatic

1291
00:47:09,829 --> 00:47:07,680
stress but it doesn't feel like that

1292
00:47:11,990 --> 00:47:09,839
finally somebody comes along goes dude

1293
00:47:13,750 --> 00:47:12,000
you saw ufo that's what it is and you

1294
00:47:16,550 --> 00:47:13,760
have all these

1295
00:47:17,750 --> 00:47:16,560
you know strange kind of

1296
00:47:18,630 --> 00:47:17,760
so

1297
00:47:21,910 --> 00:47:18,640
no

1298
00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:21,920
the tic tac thing

1299
00:47:26,390 --> 00:47:23,680
and again you know the other thing kevin

1300
00:47:28,630 --> 00:47:26,400
daley i told you it's in his it's in his

1301
00:47:30,470 --> 00:47:28,640
security email on board the ship the day

1302
00:47:32,390 --> 00:47:30,480
after all the videos

1303
00:47:34,710 --> 00:47:32,400
so

1304
00:47:37,190 --> 00:47:34,720
i i don't know i mean what intrigues me

1305
00:47:39,190 --> 00:47:37,200
about it and the reason i keep pressing

1306
00:47:40,870 --> 00:47:39,200
it is these the issues we're dealing

1307
00:47:43,030 --> 00:47:40,880
with today you know

1308
00:47:45,270 --> 00:47:43,040
uh one world government you know don't

1309
00:47:47,510 --> 00:47:45,280
you don't really have to worry about the

1310
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:47,520
united states anymore or we the people

1311
00:47:51,430 --> 00:47:49,680
or any of that this is the great

1312
00:47:53,109 --> 00:47:51,440
reset

1313
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,119
global government really does make the

1314
00:47:57,349 --> 00:47:55,200
most sense it particularly makes sense

1315
00:47:59,190 --> 00:47:57,359
from an et perspective from an at

1316
00:48:01,589 --> 00:47:59,200
perspective it's the only way to go you

1317
00:48:02,549 --> 00:48:01,599
know you don't need 147 little tribes

1318
00:48:04,470 --> 00:48:02,559
out there

1319
00:48:06,309 --> 00:48:04,480
with run around with hatchets it doesn't

1320
00:48:08,470 --> 00:48:06,319
make any sense it's the same thing with

1321
00:48:11,109 --> 00:48:08,480
the global warming nonsense yes the

1322
00:48:12,870 --> 00:48:11,119
climate i get it all that stuff but the

1323
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:12,880
only thing here about global warming is

1324
00:48:17,030 --> 00:48:15,119
it's global you got to give up all your

1325
00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:17,040
rights and we're going to try track your

1326
00:48:21,270 --> 00:48:19,440
carbon and get in line all that seems to

1327
00:48:24,069 --> 00:48:21,280
be the agenda and then the transhuman

1328
00:48:26,309 --> 00:48:24,079
agenda you know take the jab do what we

1329
00:48:29,349 --> 00:48:26,319
say we're gonna

1330
00:48:31,829 --> 00:48:29,359
to me they've kind of that's the beauty

1331
00:48:33,910 --> 00:48:31,839
of what they did with the pandemic is if

1332
00:48:37,109 --> 00:48:33,920
there were any doubts that we had they

1333
00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:37,119
kind of laid out the plan and this is

1334
00:48:41,109 --> 00:48:38,720
the plan

1335
00:48:42,950 --> 00:48:41,119
and to me i just see direct

1336
00:48:45,910 --> 00:48:42,960
parallels to

1337
00:48:48,390 --> 00:48:45,920
disclosure again because it's global

1338
00:48:51,030 --> 00:48:48,400
it's like as soon as they advance that

1339
00:48:53,829 --> 00:48:51,040
agenda there's only one solution for it

1340
00:48:56,950 --> 00:48:53,839
it's not a u.s solution it's not a

1341
00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:56,960
russia solution it's a global solution

1342
00:49:00,790 --> 00:48:58,880
is that resonating with you or you just

1343
00:49:02,870 --> 00:49:00,800
don't like to talk about that stuff

1344
00:49:07,190 --> 00:49:02,880
well i i uh

1345
00:49:09,270 --> 00:49:07,200
yeah i i you know it's like star trek uh

1346
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:09,280
federation of planets you know

1347
00:49:13,829 --> 00:49:11,280
and that's why that that i think that

1348
00:49:16,470 --> 00:49:13,839
show back in the 60s had so much

1349
00:49:18,549 --> 00:49:16,480
appeal to us because we're hopeful that

1350
00:49:21,030 --> 00:49:18,559
that's where we're headed you know

1351
00:49:23,270 --> 00:49:21,040
but here we are all these years later

1352
00:49:24,150 --> 00:49:23,280
thinking that we're

1353
00:49:26,870 --> 00:49:24,160
uh

1354
00:49:28,829 --> 00:49:26,880
we're becoming a more advanced society

1355
00:49:30,950 --> 00:49:28,839
you know we've had all these good

1356
00:49:33,589 --> 00:49:30,960
ideas that have

1357
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:33,599
sprung up from things like that and then

1358
00:49:37,510 --> 00:49:35,680
and then we see

1359
00:49:39,190 --> 00:49:37,520
uh how people are

1360
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:39,200
you know

1361
00:49:42,870 --> 00:49:40,480
are behaving

1362
00:49:45,190 --> 00:49:42,880
misbehaving and and

1363
00:49:47,990 --> 00:49:45,200
you know other countries not uh not

1364
00:49:50,150 --> 00:49:48,000
wanting to get on board and uh

1365
00:49:52,390 --> 00:49:50,160
uh be a

1366
00:49:54,790 --> 00:49:52,400
be a part of uh

1367
00:49:57,190 --> 00:49:54,800
what really needs to be done and bring

1368
00:49:59,430 --> 00:49:57,200
all the tribes together so i i see over

1369
00:50:01,910 --> 00:49:59,440
there thinking

1370
00:50:04,630 --> 00:50:01,920
well you're not you're you're not giving

1371
00:50:06,390 --> 00:50:04,640
me much you're you're you which i get

1372
00:50:09,270 --> 00:50:06,400
you know i mean

1373
00:50:10,549 --> 00:50:09,280
anything you say is going to be

1374
00:50:12,870 --> 00:50:10,559
well number one it's going to piss

1375
00:50:14,549 --> 00:50:12,880
people off on one side or other and

1376
00:50:16,069 --> 00:50:14,559
number two it's

1377
00:50:19,270 --> 00:50:16,079
who knows

1378
00:50:21,670 --> 00:50:19,280
but man i think we gotta

1379
00:50:23,829 --> 00:50:21,680
we gotta settle up and and ride here and

1380
00:50:25,750 --> 00:50:23,839
figure out you know

1381
00:50:28,549 --> 00:50:25,760
lots of is happening really well

1382
00:50:30,309 --> 00:50:28,559
how are you processing the demonic uh

1383
00:50:33,190 --> 00:50:30,319
part of this uh again are you a

1384
00:50:35,829 --> 00:50:33,200
religious guy or are you uh

1385
00:50:37,990 --> 00:50:35,839
i'm not but i think the spirituality is

1386
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:38,000
fundamental to this i look at people

1387
00:50:42,710 --> 00:50:40,640
drawing parallels with near-death

1388
00:50:44,950 --> 00:50:42,720
experience and other transformative

1389
00:50:47,270 --> 00:50:44,960
spiritual experiences and i'm like

1390
00:50:48,710 --> 00:50:47,280
i'm all for looking at the parallels

1391
00:50:50,390 --> 00:50:48,720
the next level is to look at the

1392
00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:50,400
difference is there differences is there

1393
00:50:55,030 --> 00:50:52,480
a moral imperative is there god is there

1394
00:50:57,390 --> 00:50:55,040
right and wrong because the message

1395
00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:57,400
that's being

1396
00:51:03,430 --> 00:51:00,480
consistently consistently

1397
00:51:05,510 --> 00:51:03,440
fed into the culture is a

1398
00:51:07,510 --> 00:51:05,520
crowley and do it thou wilt there really

1399
00:51:09,910 --> 00:51:07,520
is no right or wrong it's a moral

1400
00:51:12,470 --> 00:51:09,920
construct it's just you know

1401
00:51:13,670 --> 00:51:12,480
transhumanism no big deal

1402
00:51:15,190 --> 00:51:13,680
i don't know

1403
00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:15,200
how are you and all that

1404
00:51:18,390 --> 00:51:16,960
yeah we wrestle with a lot of these you

1405
00:51:21,190 --> 00:51:18,400
know that's what's so interesting really

1406
00:51:22,549 --> 00:51:21,200
about these experiences is they uh

1407
00:51:24,470 --> 00:51:22,559
they

1408
00:51:27,430 --> 00:51:24,480
it's not just

1409
00:51:29,349 --> 00:51:27,440
the simplified version of ufology that i

1410
00:51:32,150 --> 00:51:29,359
initially thought it was

1411
00:51:34,309 --> 00:51:32,160
and uh i did it one time

1412
00:51:37,430 --> 00:51:34,319
uh decide to

1413
00:51:41,670 --> 00:51:37,440
join a group up in maine back in uh may

1414
00:51:44,309 --> 00:51:41,680
of 1975 accepted christ in my life

1415
00:51:47,510 --> 00:51:44,319
uh and uh i'm sure it looks like a

1416
00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:47,520
backslidden since then but uh i was you

1417
00:51:52,790 --> 00:51:50,240
know keel was actually a lifelong

1418
00:51:54,630 --> 00:51:52,800
atheist although said said sometimes he

1419
00:51:56,309 --> 00:51:54,640
he told some that he thought maybe every

1420
00:51:57,990 --> 00:51:56,319
once in a while he'd be an agnostic you

1421
00:51:59,190 --> 00:51:58,000
know just in case you might be a little

1422
00:52:01,510 --> 00:51:59,200
wrong but

1423
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:01,520
he uh he considered himself

1424
00:52:04,950 --> 00:52:03,040
instead of a ufologist more of a

1425
00:52:06,069 --> 00:52:04,960
demonologist because he was often trying

1426
00:52:08,150 --> 00:52:06,079
to help

1427
00:52:09,750 --> 00:52:08,160
contactees and experiences who fought

1428
00:52:13,349 --> 00:52:09,760
felt that they were being manipulated

1429
00:52:14,549 --> 00:52:13,359
and used by a devious intelligence

1430
00:52:16,790 --> 00:52:14,559
that wasn't

1431
00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:16,800
doing things for their best interest

1432
00:52:20,710 --> 00:52:18,720
and i asked him one time and we were

1433
00:52:22,790 --> 00:52:20,720
talking on the phone i said what about

1434
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:22,800
and this is in my book uh how about

1435
00:52:27,670 --> 00:52:25,760
these cases of uh angels and such a way

1436
00:52:29,829 --> 00:52:27,680
it seems to have a positive spin and he

1437
00:52:32,630 --> 00:52:29,839
says yeah but they always end up sour in

1438
00:52:34,950 --> 00:52:32,640
the end he said you know in his view so

1439
00:52:35,829 --> 00:52:34,960
he didn't really see

1440
00:52:38,069 --> 00:52:35,839
uh

1441
00:52:40,549 --> 00:52:38,079
a lot of a lot of hope there

1442
00:52:42,390 --> 00:52:40,559
but you know

1443
00:52:45,030 --> 00:52:42,400
my wife is pot native american we used

1444
00:52:46,790 --> 00:52:45,040
to have a sweat lodge in our backyard uh

1445
00:52:49,750 --> 00:52:46,800
we've uh

1446
00:52:51,349 --> 00:52:49,760
in fact when we first met i

1447
00:52:53,349 --> 00:52:51,359
drove her up to pennsylvania we met a

1448
00:52:54,309 --> 00:52:53,359
sequona hock medicine man who claimed he

1449
00:52:56,549 --> 00:52:54,319
was

1450
00:52:58,630 --> 00:52:56,559
having uh e.t encounters in fact they

1451
00:53:00,950 --> 00:52:58,640
were part of his tribe's folklore the

1452
00:53:03,430 --> 00:53:00,960
eudusqua he called them they were very

1453
00:53:06,069 --> 00:53:03,440
tall beings and they

1454
00:53:07,990 --> 00:53:06,079
his wife even uh drew out on an envelope

1455
00:53:09,910 --> 00:53:08,000
picture of the craft that landed behind

1456
00:53:12,069 --> 00:53:09,920
their house she said and this was like

1457
00:53:13,990 --> 00:53:12,079
back in 1961

1458
00:53:15,910 --> 00:53:14,000
and they came in they had to bend over

1459
00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:15,920
because you know they were so tall that

1460
00:53:18,470 --> 00:53:17,280
they were gonna bump their heads on the

1461
00:53:21,270 --> 00:53:18,480
door

1462
00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:21,280
and uh he said then they they spoke to

1463
00:53:24,710 --> 00:53:22,480
him

1464
00:53:26,870 --> 00:53:24,720
and he told me uh you know a lot of his

1465
00:53:29,589 --> 00:53:26,880
his stories and so i've been very

1466
00:53:32,390 --> 00:53:29,599
interested since then and and uh what

1467
00:53:34,630 --> 00:53:32,400
native americans have to say and shamans

1468
00:53:36,309 --> 00:53:34,640
medicine men or whatever and not just of

1469
00:53:38,069 --> 00:53:36,319
native american culture but i mean it's

1470
00:53:40,390 --> 00:53:38,079
they're actually

1471
00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:40,400
shamanic cultures going way back all

1472
00:53:45,670 --> 00:53:42,720
over the world that have stories that

1473
00:53:48,309 --> 00:53:45,680
relate to these kind of elements

1474
00:53:50,710 --> 00:53:48,319
contact with the sky beings beings who

1475
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:50,720
came down from the heavens and

1476
00:53:56,069 --> 00:53:53,200
communicated with the people maybe

1477
00:53:57,750 --> 00:53:56,079
prophets shamans and instructed them on

1478
00:54:00,230 --> 00:53:57,760
how to

1479
00:54:02,950 --> 00:54:00,240
try to develop a better a better life

1480
00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:02,960
taught them things about

1481
00:54:06,309 --> 00:54:05,280
harvesting plants

1482
00:54:10,390 --> 00:54:06,319
how to

1483
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:10,400
build houses or pyramids or whatever and

1484
00:54:14,470 --> 00:54:12,400
you know trying to take all that into

1485
00:54:16,470 --> 00:54:14,480
consideration along with people who

1486
00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:16,480
claim to be channelers mediums and what

1487
00:54:20,470 --> 00:54:17,680
they get

1488
00:54:22,230 --> 00:54:20,480
uh and then there's you know of course

1489
00:54:23,270 --> 00:54:22,240
there's the trickster elements you know

1490
00:54:26,549 --> 00:54:23,280
and

1491
00:54:29,030 --> 00:54:26,559
uh there's a being that uh as greg would

1492
00:54:30,870 --> 00:54:29,040
greg little would tell you uh here

1493
00:54:33,430 --> 00:54:30,880
that uh like in the

1494
00:54:35,589 --> 00:54:33,440
in the beginning of a vision quest or

1495
00:54:37,750 --> 00:54:35,599
when someone's first encountering say a

1496
00:54:39,990 --> 00:54:37,760
ufo being or a spirit or whatever it may

1497
00:54:42,390 --> 00:54:40,000
be there's a trickster element where

1498
00:54:44,150 --> 00:54:42,400
it seems like maybe it's testing you to

1499
00:54:46,309 --> 00:54:44,160
determine what your intentions are

1500
00:54:48,549 --> 00:54:46,319
whether you're worthy of

1501
00:54:50,470 --> 00:54:48,559
true information or if you're just an

1502
00:54:52,069 --> 00:54:50,480
egotistical person

1503
00:54:53,990 --> 00:54:52,079
who has ulterior motives that aren't

1504
00:54:56,309 --> 00:54:54,000
really exactly spiritual

1505
00:54:57,430 --> 00:54:56,319
so there's the test phase

1506
00:54:59,910 --> 00:54:57,440
and uh

1507
00:55:03,750 --> 00:54:59,920
he always felt that uh betty anderson

1508
00:55:05,829 --> 00:55:03,760
luca was a perhaps a good contactee case

1509
00:55:07,589 --> 00:55:05,839
example of that in the beginning her

1510
00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:07,599
experiences were very

1511
00:55:12,950 --> 00:55:11,040
frightening to her and then over time

1512
00:55:15,670 --> 00:55:12,960
they seemed to strengthen her christian

1513
00:55:18,150 --> 00:55:15,680
beliefs and she

1514
00:55:20,230 --> 00:55:18,160
had a level of acceptance so he felt

1515
00:55:22,150 --> 00:55:20,240
that as you

1516
00:55:23,990 --> 00:55:22,160
uh if you could navigate around the

1517
00:55:26,549 --> 00:55:24,000
trickster which you said that

1518
00:55:28,549 --> 00:55:26,559
the late carl young said that shamans

1519
00:55:30,309 --> 00:55:28,559
were that was their

1520
00:55:33,589 --> 00:55:30,319
their deal they always tried to navigate

1521
00:55:35,670 --> 00:55:33,599
around the trickster who could either

1522
00:55:38,390 --> 00:55:35,680
direct them to higher levels of truth

1523
00:55:40,150 --> 00:55:38,400
and understanding or could uh

1524
00:55:43,349 --> 00:55:40,160
you know

1525
00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:43,359
delusions and

1526
00:55:48,710 --> 00:55:46,480
leave them where they found them

1527
00:55:51,109 --> 00:55:48,720
you know i got really interested in the

1528
00:55:52,630 --> 00:55:51,119
near-death experience stuff and

1529
00:55:55,430 --> 00:55:52,640
researching that

1530
00:55:57,190 --> 00:55:55,440
again because i i got interested in just

1531
00:56:00,069 --> 00:55:57,200
the the christian stuff too because the

1532
00:56:02,630 --> 00:56:00,079
christian stuff i don't know how you

1533
00:56:04,470 --> 00:56:02,640
pack that back in but to me there's a

1534
00:56:06,789 --> 00:56:04,480
history there that you got to deal with

1535
00:56:08,549 --> 00:56:06,799
there's dogma that you have to deal with

1536
00:56:10,710 --> 00:56:08,559
that doesn't square with history you

1537
00:56:15,510 --> 00:56:10,720
know the historical jesus like i am

1538
00:56:17,990 --> 00:56:15,520
totally uh accepting of anyone who has

1539
00:56:19,510 --> 00:56:18,000
a christ consciousness experience

1540
00:56:20,630 --> 00:56:19,520
i'm not accepting of it because i'm a

1541
00:56:24,069 --> 00:56:20,640
nice guy

1542
00:56:26,710 --> 00:56:24,079
of it because the evidence is pretty

1543
00:56:28,549 --> 00:56:26,720
substantial that people have had these

1544
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:28,559
christ consciousness experiences that

1545
00:56:31,990 --> 00:56:30,400
they're transformative

1546
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:32,000
in ways that we can kind of measure from

1547
00:56:35,829 --> 00:56:33,760
a social science standpoint their life

1548
00:56:37,589 --> 00:56:35,839
changes everyone around them says their

1549
00:56:40,870 --> 00:56:37,599
life changed and it stays for a long

1550
00:56:43,190 --> 00:56:40,880
time that is real the the history of

1551
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:43,200
jesus just doesn't hold up the books

1552
00:56:47,030 --> 00:56:45,359
don't hold up there's all sorts of roman

1553
00:56:50,069 --> 00:56:47,040
manipulation that's

1554
00:56:51,670 --> 00:56:50,079
pretty clear when you look at it and i'm

1555
00:56:53,589 --> 00:56:51,680
writing writing a book with some other

1556
00:56:56,309 --> 00:56:53,599
people on that right now it's just it's

1557
00:56:58,789 --> 00:56:56,319
just clear it's just clear that it was a

1558
00:57:02,150 --> 00:56:58,799
psyop social engineering program that

1559
00:57:04,549 --> 00:57:02,160
they did all the time why not why

1560
00:57:06,150 --> 00:57:04,559
better than using sticks and stones and

1561
00:57:09,270 --> 00:57:06,160
swords to

1562
00:57:10,710 --> 00:57:09,280
you know subjugate a population

1563
00:57:12,789 --> 00:57:10,720
give them give them the religion and

1564
00:57:14,470 --> 00:57:12,799
this and that doesn't mean that christ

1565
00:57:16,950 --> 00:57:14,480
but that none of that doesn't mean that

1566
00:57:18,549 --> 00:57:16,960
christ consciousness isn't real that

1567
00:57:19,910 --> 00:57:18,559
whatever whatever that means right so

1568
00:57:21,109 --> 00:57:19,920
i'm interviewing this guy david

1569
00:57:23,030 --> 00:57:21,119
ditchfield

1570
00:57:25,430 --> 00:57:23,040
terrific guy has written a book saw

1571
00:57:27,990 --> 00:57:25,440
jesus in his near-death experience many

1572
00:57:30,549 --> 00:57:28,000
many people have seen have had a direct

1573
00:57:32,390 --> 00:57:30,559
experience with jesus it always kind of

1574
00:57:34,309 --> 00:57:32,400
confuses me a little bit when i talk to

1575
00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:34,319
these people i go you experience christ

1576
00:57:38,870 --> 00:57:36,720
conscious and they go no no it was jesus

1577
00:57:41,829 --> 00:57:38,880
like okay well you know jesus is a

1578
00:57:43,270 --> 00:57:41,839
historical figure that lived 2 000 years

1579
00:57:45,030 --> 00:57:43,280
ago so

1580
00:57:46,710 --> 00:57:45,040
are you talking to me about like time

1581
00:57:48,630 --> 00:57:46,720
slip or something like that they go no

1582
00:57:50,789 --> 00:57:48,640
it was so you're talking about this

1583
00:57:53,589 --> 00:57:50,799
being in this extended consciousness

1584
00:57:55,270 --> 00:57:53,599
that's jesus okay i'm okay with that but

1585
00:57:57,990 --> 00:57:55,280
let's be clear that is christ

1586
00:57:59,990 --> 00:57:58,000
consciousness or you put another term on

1587
00:58:02,309 --> 00:58:00,000
it the point of the story is i go to

1588
00:58:07,109 --> 00:58:02,319
david

1589
00:58:09,990 --> 00:58:07,119
countered it had a mediumistic

1590
00:58:11,270 --> 00:58:10,000
experience they saw jesus too

1591
00:58:13,270 --> 00:58:11,280
i said david you know i've talked to a

1592
00:58:15,990 --> 00:58:13,280
lot of near-death experiencers that have

1593
00:58:17,430 --> 00:58:16,000
had multiple near-death experiences

1594
00:58:19,750 --> 00:58:17,440
and some of them

1595
00:58:21,750 --> 00:58:19,760
initially thought it was jesus and then

1596
00:58:23,910 --> 00:58:21,760
later felt that maybe there was

1597
00:58:26,870 --> 00:58:23,920
something more

1598
00:58:29,349 --> 00:58:26,880
and he paused for a minute he goes

1599
00:58:31,829 --> 00:58:29,359
there might be something more

1600
00:58:34,549 --> 00:58:31,839
so this has been one of my

1601
00:58:37,510 --> 00:58:34,559
areas of interest because like the only

1602
00:58:39,030 --> 00:58:37,520
reason i do this freaking show

1603
00:58:41,430 --> 00:58:39,040
because i've done it for a long time

1604
00:58:42,870 --> 00:58:41,440
like you i'm not a long i don't have the

1605
00:58:44,710 --> 00:58:42,880
history that you do

1606
00:58:47,109 --> 00:58:44,720
but i want to know

1607
00:58:49,349 --> 00:58:47,119
how to live my life better

1608
00:58:51,990 --> 00:58:49,359
i want to know who i am what i'm here

1609
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:52,000
why i'm here and what decisions i should

1610
00:58:55,829 --> 00:58:53,760
make you know

1611
00:58:57,430 --> 00:58:55,839
and fundamental to that is is there a

1612
00:58:59,030 --> 00:58:57,440
moral imperative

1613
00:59:00,309 --> 00:58:59,040
is there a hierarchy to this

1614
00:59:03,270 --> 00:59:00,319
consciousness

1615
00:59:05,589 --> 00:59:03,280
is there good and evil

1616
00:59:08,950 --> 00:59:05,599
and i think there is

1617
00:59:11,109 --> 00:59:08,960
and i get pissed off when people

1618
00:59:12,789 --> 00:59:11,119
do the crowley aleister crowley and

1619
00:59:14,630 --> 00:59:12,799
we'll do what thou wilt because really

1620
00:59:16,870 --> 00:59:14,640
there's no i don't see the evidence for

1621
00:59:18,470 --> 00:59:16,880
that i see the evidence for

1622
00:59:20,710 --> 00:59:18,480
hierarchy of consciousness moral

1623
00:59:22,710 --> 00:59:20,720
imperative there is god there is good i

1624
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:22,720
see it all over the place

1625
00:59:27,349 --> 00:59:25,119
but i don't see it in a strict reading

1626
00:59:29,109 --> 00:59:27,359
of christianity to me you want to talk

1627
00:59:31,670 --> 00:59:29,119
about trickster it's like

1628
00:59:33,190 --> 00:59:31,680
it's a history of tricksterism

1629
00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:33,200
so

1630
00:59:36,069 --> 00:59:35,280
this is the stuff i think that we have

1631
00:59:40,390 --> 00:59:36,079
to

1632
00:59:43,270 --> 00:59:40,400
and uh

1633
00:59:45,270 --> 00:59:43,280
e.t only confuses the issue

1634
00:59:47,430 --> 00:59:45,280
even the shamanic experiences that

1635
00:59:49,349 --> 00:59:47,440
you're talking about i mean you know the

1636
00:59:51,030 --> 00:59:49,359
the the starting point for the for the

1637
00:59:53,190 --> 00:59:51,040
shamatic thing is

1638
00:59:55,190 --> 00:59:53,200
great you got all this info

1639
00:59:57,270 --> 00:59:55,200
and they still came in and trampled over

1640
00:59:59,910 --> 00:59:57,280
your culture and just destroyed you you

1641
01:00:00,630 --> 00:59:59,920
know it just destroyed you

1642
01:00:04,069 --> 01:00:00,640
why

1643
01:00:06,309 --> 01:00:04,079
and that's the question we could ask

1644
01:00:09,109 --> 01:00:06,319
about god all the time you know why does

1645
01:00:10,470 --> 01:00:09,119
god seem indifferent but times when he

1646
01:00:12,470 --> 01:00:10,480
should be

1647
01:00:15,030 --> 01:00:12,480
joining on the side of the good those

1648
01:00:17,589 --> 01:00:15,040
are questions we'll never answer but i i

1649
01:00:21,190 --> 01:00:17,599
still feel compelled to try and poke at

1650
01:00:23,990 --> 01:00:21,200
those questions and nudge closer about

1651
01:00:26,470 --> 01:00:24,000
is there good or evil is there god is

1652
01:00:28,470 --> 01:00:26,480
this how is that working in this data

1653
01:00:29,349 --> 01:00:28,480
we're collecting

1654
01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:29,359
there's

1655
01:00:34,789 --> 01:00:32,160
physics and consciousness it's

1656
01:00:37,990 --> 01:00:34,799
it's the two areas

1657
01:00:40,470 --> 01:00:38,000
that really we need really serious

1658
01:00:43,750 --> 01:00:40,480
focus and attention scientists

1659
01:00:45,829 --> 01:00:43,760
the academics that are jumping on this

1660
01:00:47,990 --> 01:00:45,839
but yet you know

1661
01:00:50,470 --> 01:00:48,000
what is the x factor that unites me like

1662
01:00:51,270 --> 01:00:50,480
synchronicity non-causal

1663
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:51,280
uh

1664
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:53,680
coincidence there's something there that

1665
01:00:58,230 --> 01:00:56,160
seems to connect

1666
01:01:00,710 --> 01:00:58,240
but yet it's it's you know we don't

1667
01:01:03,349 --> 01:01:00,720
really know what it is yet uh we haven't

1668
01:01:05,349 --> 01:01:03,359
yet identified

1669
01:01:08,470 --> 01:01:05,359
what this is we know that

1670
01:01:09,910 --> 01:01:08,480
when a person has an experience

1671
01:01:11,349 --> 01:01:09,920
because like near-death experiences

1672
01:01:12,870 --> 01:01:11,359
carlos solces

1673
01:01:15,430 --> 01:01:12,880
and one of his colleagues wrote a book

1674
01:01:17,510 --> 01:01:15,440
about uh cases of near-death experiences

1675
01:01:18,630 --> 01:01:17,520
in india and then compared them to near

1676
01:01:20,390 --> 01:01:18,640
to experience the united states and

1677
01:01:22,230 --> 01:01:20,400
there were variances you know they would

1678
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:22,240
they would be seeing buddha or something

1679
01:01:26,069 --> 01:01:24,720
would see christ and yet there were

1680
01:01:28,549 --> 01:01:26,079
similarities and there were slight

1681
01:01:31,589 --> 01:01:28,559
differences affected by culture a person

1682
01:01:33,829 --> 01:01:31,599
has a ufo contact experience

1683
01:01:36,069 --> 01:01:33,839
or in you know like all these other

1684
01:01:38,230 --> 01:01:36,079
experiences and

1685
01:01:40,150 --> 01:01:38,240
it seems to be like it seems like an

1686
01:01:41,349 --> 01:01:40,160
intelligence interacting

1687
01:01:43,829 --> 01:01:41,359
but also

1688
01:01:46,309 --> 01:01:43,839
it affects uh you know it conforms to

1689
01:01:47,430 --> 01:01:46,319
our expectations and things and that's

1690
01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:47,440
how it gets

1691
01:01:51,430 --> 01:01:48,880
gets

1692
01:01:52,950 --> 01:01:51,440
by us and embedded in our our thoughts

1693
01:01:54,230 --> 01:01:52,960
and our lives

1694
01:01:55,829 --> 01:01:54,240
and uh

1695
01:01:58,069 --> 01:01:55,839
so i think it could be

1696
01:01:59,589 --> 01:01:58,079
an actual interactive intelligence and

1697
01:02:02,710 --> 01:01:59,599
then it waits to see how we're going to

1698
01:02:04,390 --> 01:02:02,720
react and yet it can read us and so then

1699
01:02:07,750 --> 01:02:04,400
it uh

1700
01:02:09,670 --> 01:02:07,760
you know it goes from there and

1701
01:02:13,349 --> 01:02:09,680
we don't really know sometimes how much

1702
01:02:15,270 --> 01:02:13,359
is it and how much is us

1703
01:02:16,710 --> 01:02:15,280
like that uh like a gentleman you just

1704
01:02:18,150 --> 01:02:16,720
talked about like you know you had to

1705
01:02:21,750 --> 01:02:18,160
point it out to him do you really think

1706
01:02:23,349 --> 01:02:21,760
that is christ or a representation of

1707
01:02:24,470 --> 01:02:23,359
christ consciousness something else

1708
01:02:27,430 --> 01:02:24,480
higher or

1709
01:02:28,390 --> 01:02:27,440
or is it part of your own unconscious

1710
01:02:30,549 --> 01:02:28,400
that's

1711
01:02:32,390 --> 01:02:30,559
you know your expectations of what you

1712
01:02:35,109 --> 01:02:32,400
you've been told was

1713
01:02:36,789 --> 01:02:35,119
was the real deal here what uh your you

1714
01:02:39,510 --> 01:02:36,799
were told or your condition through your

1715
01:02:41,589 --> 01:02:39,520
culture or spiritual background is the

1716
01:02:42,950 --> 01:02:41,599
answer or you know

1717
01:02:45,349 --> 01:02:42,960
because a lot of people enter these

1718
01:02:48,870 --> 01:02:45,359
experiences unexpectedly

1719
01:02:50,950 --> 01:02:48,880
and their brain is like trying

1720
01:02:52,789 --> 01:02:50,960
desperately i'm sure to

1721
01:02:56,069 --> 01:02:52,799
put this in some kind of a

1722
01:02:57,510 --> 01:02:56,079
context or or framework

1723
01:02:58,549 --> 01:02:57,520
and

1724
01:03:00,549 --> 01:02:58,559
so

1725
01:03:02,549 --> 01:03:00,559
i find myself

1726
01:03:04,950 --> 01:03:02,559
trying to connect the dots but also at

1727
01:03:06,630 --> 01:03:04,960
the same time i have a hesitancy to just

1728
01:03:07,829 --> 01:03:06,640
jump in and say

1729
01:03:08,630 --> 01:03:07,839
aha

1730
01:03:13,270 --> 01:03:08,640
it's

1731
01:03:15,510 --> 01:03:13,280
certainty and uh

1732
01:03:17,029 --> 01:03:15,520
keel was certainly a good

1733
01:03:19,670 --> 01:03:17,039
i realized

1734
01:03:22,470 --> 01:03:19,680
a good springboard to use to actually

1735
01:03:24,069 --> 01:03:22,480
delve into things and interview people

1736
01:03:26,309 --> 01:03:24,079
who had known him

1737
01:03:28,069 --> 01:03:26,319
and actually take my own

1738
01:03:30,150 --> 01:03:28,079
involvement tutor

1739
01:03:31,910 --> 01:03:30,160
to say yes these are really valid areas

1740
01:03:33,109 --> 01:03:31,920
to look into and there's still so much

1741
01:03:34,390 --> 01:03:33,119
that we

1742
01:03:36,390 --> 01:03:34,400
don't know

1743
01:03:38,789 --> 01:03:36,400
and it would be it's like a spiritual

1744
01:03:40,230 --> 01:03:38,799
journey you're going through it i'm

1745
01:03:41,829 --> 01:03:40,240
going through it lots of people are

1746
01:03:43,829 --> 01:03:41,839
going through it and

1747
01:03:46,549 --> 01:03:43,839
and sometimes it's like beating our head

1748
01:03:49,750 --> 01:03:46,559
into a wall trying to uh

1749
01:03:52,069 --> 01:03:49,760
address the contradictions and the

1750
01:03:54,390 --> 01:03:52,079
yeah i just read some discussions people

1751
01:03:56,150 --> 01:03:54,400
had on facebook about

1752
01:03:57,910 --> 01:03:56,160
uh the bible and different things it

1753
01:04:00,549 --> 01:03:57,920
says that contradict one another says a

1754
01:04:03,190 --> 01:04:00,559
book of contradictions it's very

1755
01:04:05,349 --> 01:04:03,200
very difficult to you know and then was

1756
01:04:07,029 --> 01:04:05,359
a native american who

1757
01:04:10,549 --> 01:04:07,039
uh was telling

1758
01:04:12,390 --> 01:04:10,559
my wife and i one time says

1759
01:04:15,029 --> 01:04:12,400
peter paul and mary you know in the

1760
01:04:16,870 --> 01:04:15,039
bible those are really good uh catholic

1761
01:04:20,789 --> 01:04:16,880
names

1762
01:04:23,029 --> 01:04:20,799
know you would expect from that part of

1763
01:04:24,710 --> 01:04:23,039
the world and there's a lot of

1764
01:04:26,630 --> 01:04:24,720
a lot of good questions that sometimes

1765
01:04:27,750 --> 01:04:26,640
it takes someone from another culture to

1766
01:04:30,069 --> 01:04:27,760
really

1767
01:04:32,390 --> 01:04:30,079
framework correctly where you say oh

1768
01:04:34,309 --> 01:04:32,400
well yeah i guess you know but when you

1769
01:04:35,349 --> 01:04:34,319
grow up with it sometimes you're just

1770
01:04:37,910 --> 01:04:35,359
sort of

1771
01:04:39,670 --> 01:04:37,920
you're too relaxed in your acceptance of

1772
01:04:41,990 --> 01:04:39,680
different things

1773
01:04:44,870 --> 01:04:42,000
and then something like

1774
01:04:47,829 --> 01:04:44,880
i know keloids wrote in different plot

1775
01:04:49,270 --> 01:04:47,839
parts you know say you're out one day

1776
01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:49,280
strolling around your

1777
01:04:52,870 --> 01:04:50,480
yard and

1778
01:04:55,990 --> 01:04:52,880
suddenly this flying saucer looks like a

1779
01:04:58,470 --> 01:04:56,000
flying saw some lands and this uh

1780
01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:58,480
silver suited humanoid being walks up to

1781
01:05:02,549 --> 01:05:00,480
you and tells us from venus

1782
01:05:04,789 --> 01:05:02,559
at that point are you going to say

1783
01:05:05,910 --> 01:05:04,799
you're not real you know

1784
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:05,920
you're going to become one of those

1785
01:05:08,789 --> 01:05:07,920
space-age messiahs you know you're gonna

1786
01:05:13,670 --> 01:05:08,799
be

1787
01:05:14,789 --> 01:05:13,680
and uh

1788
01:05:19,270 --> 01:05:14,799
how do you

1789
01:05:21,510 --> 01:05:19,280
that you know so

1790
01:05:24,470 --> 01:05:21,520
bravo you know like like you said brent

1791
01:05:26,789 --> 01:05:24,480
yeah you're on the spiritual journey

1792
01:05:29,029 --> 01:05:26,799
yeah and i can't really advise you know

1793
01:05:31,589 --> 01:05:29,039
i think that

1794
01:05:33,109 --> 01:05:31,599
you know and then i'm

1795
01:05:34,789 --> 01:05:33,119
i still find

1796
01:05:36,870 --> 01:05:34,799
it's it's hard for me to advise anyone

1797
01:05:40,710 --> 01:05:36,880
else exactly you know

1798
01:05:42,549 --> 01:05:40,720
and a real clear path to take because i

1799
01:05:46,150 --> 01:05:42,559
think you have to

1800
01:05:48,710 --> 01:05:46,160
it's got to be a kind of a pathway you

1801
01:05:52,390 --> 01:05:48,720
have to allow yourself to kind of

1802
01:05:55,190 --> 01:05:52,400
mix things up and ask the questions like

1803
01:05:56,150 --> 01:05:55,200
you've been asking and the questions you

1804
01:05:58,950 --> 01:05:56,160
know that

1805
01:06:02,390 --> 01:05:58,960
a lot of people just get on one path

1806
01:06:03,670 --> 01:06:02,400
and they stick there and uh

1807
01:06:16,950 --> 01:06:03,680
i

1808
01:06:18,710 --> 01:06:16,960
and

1809
01:06:20,950 --> 01:06:18,720
you know keel uh

1810
01:06:23,270 --> 01:06:20,960
to at the end kiel wrote me and said uh

1811
01:06:25,270 --> 01:06:23,280
after my my book uh my first book

1812
01:06:28,230 --> 01:06:25,280
visitors from hidden realms

1813
01:06:30,309 --> 01:06:28,240
uh came out 2004 i sent him a copy of my

1814
01:06:32,630 --> 01:06:30,319
book and he said that essentially

1815
01:06:35,109 --> 01:06:32,640
i had followed a path that he had but he

1816
01:06:37,750 --> 01:06:35,119
said in the end we don't know we really

1817
01:06:39,190 --> 01:06:37,760
don't know anymore i said churches are

1818
01:06:41,589 --> 01:06:39,200
are not really

1819
01:06:42,549 --> 01:06:41,599
our religions have failed us and all and

1820
01:06:45,430 --> 01:06:42,559
uh

1821
01:06:47,510 --> 01:06:45,440
we don't have any definite solid answers

1822
01:06:50,630 --> 01:06:47,520
uh he said the best that i could offer

1823
01:06:51,829 --> 01:06:50,640
in my writings was speculation and you

1824
01:06:52,710 --> 01:06:51,839
know

1825
01:06:54,870 --> 01:06:52,720
uh

1826
01:06:56,789 --> 01:06:54,880
it was kind of a you know a heartfelt

1827
01:06:59,190 --> 01:06:56,799
and somewhat uh

1828
01:07:00,470 --> 01:06:59,200
depressing letter i felt that he that he

1829
01:07:02,710 --> 01:07:00,480
had written you know

1830
01:07:03,750 --> 01:07:02,720
but uh well that's an atheist

1831
01:07:04,870 --> 01:07:03,760
you know

1832
01:07:06,309 --> 01:07:04,880
that's

1833
01:07:09,270 --> 01:07:06,319
there's no hope

1834
01:07:11,109 --> 01:07:09,280
yeah and i i certainly you know i i

1835
01:07:13,270 --> 01:07:11,119
always tell people i want to be a little

1836
01:07:16,549 --> 01:07:13,280
more upbeat positive than keel laws even

1837
01:07:18,069 --> 01:07:16,559
though i i highly respected you know the

1838
01:07:19,829 --> 01:07:18,079
the direction that he took and i

1839
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:19,839
understand the complications and

1840
01:07:23,829 --> 01:07:21,599
contradictions

1841
01:07:27,029 --> 01:07:23,839
that uh

1842
01:07:29,270 --> 01:07:27,039
that befall us all in trying to

1843
01:07:32,069 --> 01:07:29,280
tie this up into a neat little package i

1844
01:07:33,750 --> 01:07:32,079
mean they're really in their minds a lot

1845
01:07:36,470 --> 01:07:33,760
of people think they've got that package

1846
01:07:37,829 --> 01:07:36,480
but in my mind it's it's very complex

1847
01:07:40,829 --> 01:07:37,839
and uh

1848
01:07:42,789 --> 01:07:40,839
a lot of it's very tricky trick

1849
01:07:44,950 --> 01:07:42,799
trickster-like yeah

1850
01:07:46,950 --> 01:07:44,960
yeah we'll we'll we'll head towards

1851
01:07:50,309 --> 01:07:46,960
wrapping it up but i can't resist you

1852
01:07:53,190 --> 01:07:50,319
know one of my fav fame favorite

1853
01:07:56,789 --> 01:07:53,200
points on that is uh

1854
01:07:59,190 --> 01:07:56,799
albert camus who uh philosopher

1855
01:08:00,710 --> 01:07:59,200
uh and it this could kind of be

1856
01:08:02,549 --> 01:08:00,720
interpreted a lot of different ways but

1857
01:08:04,230 --> 01:08:02,559
there's only one philosophical question

1858
01:08:05,750 --> 01:08:04,240
suicide

1859
01:08:08,150 --> 01:08:05,760
and that's what i always lay out to

1860
01:08:09,510 --> 01:08:08,160
atheists it's like really you think life

1861
01:08:10,390 --> 01:08:09,520
is meaningless

1862
01:08:11,829 --> 01:08:10,400
you think

1863
01:08:13,349 --> 01:08:11,839
you're a biological robot and

1864
01:08:14,870 --> 01:08:13,359
meaningless universe

1865
01:08:16,390 --> 01:08:14,880
no you don't

1866
01:08:19,590 --> 01:08:16,400
you got up you took your head off the

1867
01:08:22,630 --> 01:08:19,600
pillow today you made that decision so

1868
01:08:25,349 --> 01:08:22,640
don't tell me this agnostic

1869
01:08:27,749 --> 01:08:25,359
you're not agnostic you're here

1870
01:08:28,630 --> 01:08:27,759
you took another breath you took another

1871
01:08:31,110 --> 01:08:28,640
step

1872
01:08:33,590 --> 01:08:31,120
you're a believer just like me you just

1873
01:08:35,829 --> 01:08:33,600
want to play hide and seek with well i'm

1874
01:08:38,070 --> 01:08:35,839
not really sure i don't really know kind

1875
01:08:38,870 --> 01:08:38,080
of stuff i like the believers whether

1876
01:08:41,669 --> 01:08:38,880
they're

1877
01:08:44,390 --> 01:08:41,679
christians or

1878
01:08:45,910 --> 01:08:44,400
cherokee or whatever the hell

1879
01:08:47,749 --> 01:08:45,920
what else can you be other than a

1880
01:08:50,829 --> 01:08:47,759
believer it's just moving from one

1881
01:08:53,749 --> 01:08:50,839
belief to another being fluid about

1882
01:08:55,590 --> 01:08:53,759
it long as they're genuine and authentic

1883
01:08:57,349 --> 01:08:55,600
and you know

1884
01:08:59,349 --> 01:08:57,359
not just trying to make money and be a

1885
01:09:01,030 --> 01:08:59,359
televangelist or something

1886
01:09:03,669 --> 01:09:01,040
yeah yeah yeah those are those are the

1887
01:09:05,829 --> 01:09:03,679
ones you got to look out for hey so

1888
01:09:06,709 --> 01:09:05,839
you're obviously not going to stop with

1889
01:09:07,510 --> 01:09:06,719
this

1890
01:09:09,910 --> 01:09:07,520
but

1891
01:09:13,990 --> 01:09:09,920
let me pull it up here

1892
01:09:16,470 --> 01:09:14,000
where are you going with this work

1893
01:09:18,550 --> 01:09:16,480
and again there's so much here i i do i

1894
01:09:19,749 --> 01:09:18,560
have to come back and bring back

1895
01:09:22,470 --> 01:09:19,759
folks too

1896
01:09:26,709 --> 01:09:22,480
you could go read all his books but go

1897
01:09:29,430 --> 01:09:28,550
and just type something in that search

1898
01:09:32,309 --> 01:09:29,440
bar

1899
01:09:34,950 --> 01:09:32,319
anything you want related to this topic

1900
01:09:36,789 --> 01:09:34,960
and you're going to be amazed like i was

1901
01:09:38,550 --> 01:09:36,799
it's like that was driving me nuts when

1902
01:09:40,390 --> 01:09:38,560
i was preparing for this interviews

1903
01:09:42,229 --> 01:09:40,400
every time i did i had three or four

1904
01:09:43,110 --> 01:09:42,239
other you know complete articles i had

1905
01:09:45,030 --> 01:09:43,120
to read

1906
01:09:48,789 --> 01:09:45,040
a million questions to ask

1907
01:09:50,950 --> 01:09:48,799
go there and that will lead you towards

1908
01:09:52,950 --> 01:09:50,960
these remarkable books we talked a lot

1909
01:09:54,630 --> 01:09:52,960
about the john keel book

1910
01:09:56,470 --> 01:09:54,640
again

1911
01:09:59,750 --> 01:09:56,480
and three of those books are mine the

1912
01:10:01,669 --> 01:09:59,760
others are by uh greg little who uh has

1913
01:10:02,390 --> 01:10:01,679
been working with me

1914
01:10:05,070 --> 01:10:02,400
as

1915
01:10:08,149 --> 01:10:05,080
co-editor publisher columnist for since

1916
01:10:10,310 --> 01:10:08,159
1985 when i first started this magazine

1917
01:10:12,070 --> 01:10:10,320
as para ufology forum

1918
01:10:13,030 --> 01:10:12,080
which was a print magazine then we

1919
01:10:14,149 --> 01:10:13,040
actually

1920
01:10:16,470 --> 01:10:14,159
greg was

1921
01:10:18,950 --> 01:10:16,480
co-editing with me uh

1922
01:10:22,149 --> 01:10:18,960
up to about you know 2 000 we did have a

1923
01:10:24,630 --> 01:10:22,159
print magazine which uh about 58 pages

1924
01:10:26,149 --> 01:10:24,640
and it was quite spectacular uh we had

1925
01:10:28,229 --> 01:10:26,159
subscribers

1926
01:10:29,910 --> 01:10:28,239
all over the world we had uh

1927
01:10:32,709 --> 01:10:29,920
magazine distributors from coast to

1928
01:10:34,709 --> 01:10:32,719
coast uh but you know everybody's gone

1929
01:10:37,270 --> 01:10:34,719
to the internet book sales on set you

1930
01:10:38,390 --> 01:10:37,280
can you go to a bookstore now barnes and

1931
01:10:40,229 --> 01:10:38,400
noble's or

1932
01:10:43,590 --> 01:10:40,239
or you know books a million and find a

1933
01:10:45,990 --> 01:10:43,600
ufo book it's very hard for a magazine

1934
01:10:49,270 --> 01:10:46,000
uh now now it's like it's gone to uh you

1935
01:10:51,590 --> 01:10:49,280
know i ching books of witchcraft or

1936
01:10:52,470 --> 01:10:51,600
uh maybe you want to buy a crystal or

1937
01:10:54,870 --> 01:10:52,480
something

1938
01:10:56,870 --> 01:10:54,880
uh it's it's it's uh it used to be able

1939
01:11:00,870 --> 01:10:56,880
to go and there'd be all these magazines

1940
01:11:01,910 --> 01:11:00,880
ufo universe or saga's ufo report and so

1941
01:11:04,070 --> 01:11:01,920
on and

1942
01:11:06,709 --> 01:11:04,080
and uh fake magazine it's it's still

1943
01:11:08,790 --> 01:11:06,719
published but it's very very

1944
01:11:11,189 --> 01:11:08,800
i guess you just have to subscribe to it

1945
01:11:12,790 --> 01:11:11,199
i never see it on a book stand anymore

1946
01:11:14,550 --> 01:11:12,800
it's a whole

1947
01:11:17,590 --> 01:11:14,560
whole new world

1948
01:11:19,830 --> 01:11:17,600
it is and it's pluses and minuses and

1949
01:11:21,030 --> 01:11:19,840
the medium is the massage and the medium

1950
01:11:22,709 --> 01:11:21,040
is the message

1951
01:11:25,510 --> 01:11:22,719
to uh quote

1952
01:11:27,189 --> 01:11:25,520
uh marshall mcluhan and there definitely

1953
01:11:29,430 --> 01:11:27,199
was i'm old enough to remember there was

1954
01:11:31,430 --> 01:11:29,440
something about getting that magazine

1955
01:11:32,470 --> 01:11:31,440
and i didn't read a lot of ufo magazines

1956
01:11:34,310 --> 01:11:32,480
but

1957
01:11:36,790 --> 01:11:34,320
sitting down and knowing that you're

1958
01:11:39,910 --> 01:11:36,800
going to have that page turning

1959
01:11:41,590 --> 01:11:39,920
experience and going through and just

1960
01:11:42,630 --> 01:11:41,600
sitting in a comfortable place all that

1961
01:11:44,550 --> 01:11:42,640
stuff

1962
01:11:46,630 --> 01:11:44,560
we have lost that but we've gained some

1963
01:11:48,310 --> 01:11:46,640
stuff too you know we can search now and

1964
01:11:52,950 --> 01:11:48,320
that search bar

1965
01:11:54,790 --> 01:11:52,960
so you know there's the

1966
01:11:55,590 --> 01:11:54,800
there's the trade-off so what's caught

1967
01:11:58,790 --> 01:11:55,600
your

1968
01:12:00,950 --> 01:11:58,800
interest lately where do you want to go

1969
01:12:03,990 --> 01:12:00,960
uh where do we expect you expect to see

1970
01:12:05,990 --> 01:12:04,000
you go in the next year or two

1971
01:12:07,750 --> 01:12:06,000
i i am thinking about running another

1972
01:12:09,590 --> 01:12:07,760
keel book

1973
01:12:11,350 --> 01:12:09,600
describing maybe a little starting out

1974
01:12:14,470 --> 01:12:11,360
with a little more of where i

1975
01:12:16,229 --> 01:12:14,480
where i started from as a teenager and

1976
01:12:18,870 --> 01:12:16,239
bringing that forward you know some road

1977
01:12:20,550 --> 01:12:18,880
trips i took and different things and

1978
01:12:22,790 --> 01:12:20,560
what happened and

1979
01:12:23,830 --> 01:12:22,800
how i became as diluted as i am today

1980
01:12:27,669 --> 01:12:23,840
you know

1981
01:12:29,590 --> 01:12:27,679
and uh and then present cases that uh

1982
01:12:31,830 --> 01:12:29,600
uh additional cases that i did in the

1983
01:12:34,630 --> 01:12:31,840
keel book that um

1984
01:12:37,669 --> 01:12:34,640
you know they just don't fit the

1985
01:12:40,070 --> 01:12:37,679
the mainstream nuts and bolts ep theme

1986
01:12:41,910 --> 01:12:40,080
but they're out there and they seem to

1987
01:12:44,070 --> 01:12:41,920
cross over to all these other unusual

1988
01:12:46,470 --> 01:12:44,080
phenomena they seem to be a part of it

1989
01:12:48,149 --> 01:12:46,480
it's just our mindset has

1990
01:12:50,470 --> 01:12:48,159
tried to pigeonhole them where we want

1991
01:12:52,229 --> 01:12:50,480
it if it's not what we want to hear

1992
01:12:53,750 --> 01:12:52,239
we shelve it away or

1993
01:12:55,189 --> 01:12:53,760
put it in the circular file and forget

1994
01:12:57,590 --> 01:12:55,199
about it

1995
01:12:59,830 --> 01:12:57,600
but uh i want to be one of those people

1996
01:13:02,149 --> 01:12:59,840
who keeps putting it out there under

1997
01:13:03,110 --> 01:13:02,159
people's noses so they can't uh avoid it

1998
01:13:07,110 --> 01:13:03,120
now we got

1999
01:13:08,310 --> 01:13:07,120
and and one of the good things about uh

2000
01:13:09,830 --> 01:13:08,320
today

2001
01:13:11,830 --> 01:13:09,840
these times is

2002
01:13:13,590 --> 01:13:11,840
like you and ice being able to sit here

2003
01:13:15,510 --> 01:13:13,600
and uh converse

2004
01:13:19,110 --> 01:13:15,520
face to face even though it's through a

2005
01:13:21,510 --> 01:13:19,120
digital system uh it's more personal and

2006
01:13:23,910 --> 01:13:21,520
you know back in the day you had to

2007
01:13:26,470 --> 01:13:23,920
drive miles to get to see and talk with

2008
01:13:28,070 --> 01:13:26,480
someone or attend a conference you know

2009
01:13:29,910 --> 01:13:28,080
and uh

2010
01:13:31,990 --> 01:13:29,920
and of course we still fortunately have

2011
01:13:33,590 --> 01:13:32,000
a few conferences they're coming back

2012
01:13:35,510 --> 01:13:33,600
after you know

2013
01:13:37,189 --> 01:13:35,520
a couple years of uh interruption with

2014
01:13:40,229 --> 01:13:37,199
kovid but uh

2015
01:13:42,630 --> 01:13:40,239
anyway uh even during that we still had

2016
01:13:45,590 --> 01:13:42,640
this and this is great

2017
01:13:48,070 --> 01:13:45,600
and uh thank you for having me

2018
01:13:49,430 --> 01:13:48,080
me on to talk with you sorry i couldn't

2019
01:13:51,830 --> 01:13:49,440
provide

2020
01:13:53,750 --> 01:13:51,840
maybe the answers and insights that

2021
01:13:55,350 --> 01:13:53,760
you were trying to get right i don't

2022
01:13:57,510 --> 01:13:55,360
know

2023
01:13:59,830 --> 01:13:57,520
no you did you you tipped your hand

2024
01:14:01,830 --> 01:13:59,840
right there at the end which is

2025
01:14:04,470 --> 01:14:01,840
i get it you let your writing do the

2026
01:14:07,030 --> 01:14:04,480
talking you just put it out there here's

2027
01:14:08,790 --> 01:14:07,040
another case and i love your interviews

2028
01:14:10,950 --> 01:14:08,800
they're incredibly

2029
01:14:12,550 --> 01:14:10,960
in-depth and you elicit

2030
01:14:14,390 --> 01:14:12,560
so much information in a very

2031
01:14:16,870 --> 01:14:14,400
non-judgmental way

2032
01:14:18,790 --> 01:14:16,880
and you just put it out there so

2033
01:14:21,110 --> 01:14:18,800
that's what you're about now i get it it

2034
01:14:23,189 --> 01:14:21,120
just took me an hour and a half you just

2035
01:14:25,350 --> 01:14:23,199
put it out there let everyone kind of

2036
01:14:28,149 --> 01:14:25,360
have at it but it's out there you got to

2037
01:14:30,550 --> 01:14:28,159
deal with it you know it's there i i

2038
01:14:32,470 --> 01:14:30,560
can't uh i can't say what it's all about

2039
01:14:35,350 --> 01:14:32,480
i really don't know i'm still

2040
01:14:37,669 --> 01:14:35,360
after 55 and a little over half

2041
01:14:39,590 --> 01:14:37,679
you know years i'm still

2042
01:14:40,790 --> 01:14:39,600
struggling it's still a challenge but i

2043
01:14:42,630 --> 01:14:40,800
know there's

2044
01:14:44,310 --> 01:14:42,640
something to it and

2045
01:14:46,790 --> 01:14:44,320
i hadn't even talked about i guess you

2046
01:14:48,550 --> 01:14:46,800
read it but you know i after keele's

2047
01:14:50,709 --> 01:14:48,560
pass and i thought what a loss and so on

2048
01:14:52,510 --> 01:14:50,719
and there was a contact experiencer i

2049
01:14:56,950 --> 01:14:52,520
met named brett oldham

2050
01:14:59,110 --> 01:14:56,960
a little over 10 years ago now and and

2051
01:15:01,510 --> 01:14:59,120
he introduced me to this evp method

2052
01:15:04,229 --> 01:15:01,520
called evp method electronic voice

2053
01:15:06,390 --> 01:15:04,239
phenomena called a ghost box which was

2054
01:15:08,310 --> 01:15:06,400
based on the early frank's box if anyone

2055
01:15:11,510 --> 01:15:08,320
familiar with it

2056
01:15:13,830 --> 01:15:11,520
i mean we were getting john keel after

2057
01:15:15,590 --> 01:15:13,840
he had died coming i read i wrote a

2058
01:15:17,350 --> 01:15:15,600
little bit about the story uh you and

2059
01:15:19,430 --> 01:15:17,360
your son and your wife right in the

2060
01:15:20,950 --> 01:15:19,440
spirit box and

2061
01:15:27,110 --> 01:15:20,960
please go back

2062
01:15:29,430 --> 01:15:27,120
to john keel right

2063
01:15:31,910 --> 01:15:29,440
yeah i mean okay i was

2064
01:15:33,910 --> 01:15:31,920
you know i had tried evp things in in

2065
01:15:35,750 --> 01:15:33,920
the past and didn't have much any

2066
01:15:37,350 --> 01:15:35,760
success really i was i was more the

2067
01:15:39,590 --> 01:15:37,360
debunker than anything

2068
01:15:41,110 --> 01:15:39,600
but uh suddenly we did these sessions

2069
01:15:43,590 --> 01:15:41,120
with him and he was

2070
01:15:46,950 --> 01:15:43,600
he was a person who from age five had

2071
01:15:48,070 --> 01:15:46,960
seen a ghost age five had seen a uh

2072
01:15:50,390 --> 01:15:48,080
a gray

2073
01:15:51,350 --> 01:15:50,400
which he first thought was a demon

2074
01:15:54,950 --> 01:15:51,360
and

2075
01:15:57,030 --> 01:15:54,960
psychics but it was a ghost time that's

2076
01:15:58,470 --> 01:15:57,040
how i met him first didn't even tell me

2077
01:15:59,830 --> 01:15:58,480
in the beginning that he was also an

2078
01:16:03,590 --> 01:15:59,840
abductee

2079
01:16:05,430 --> 01:16:03,600
and but he was he had this method

2080
01:16:07,830 --> 01:16:05,440
he seemed to

2081
01:16:09,910 --> 01:16:07,840
be able to work with the the ghostbox

2082
01:16:12,229 --> 01:16:09,920
which is a digital radio from radio

2083
01:16:14,310 --> 01:16:12,239
shack you can get one and just adjust it

2084
01:16:16,709 --> 01:16:14,320
where it goes on continuous scan and the

2085
01:16:17,910 --> 01:16:16,719
idea is the white noise you'll pick up

2086
01:16:21,030 --> 01:16:17,920
these voices

2087
01:16:23,350 --> 01:16:21,040
and i let we got together one time and

2088
01:16:25,270 --> 01:16:23,360
this was right after my daughter had a

2089
01:16:27,750 --> 01:16:25,280
young boy named connor

2090
01:16:29,430 --> 01:16:27,760
and so somebody had a babysit so i sat

2091
01:16:31,510 --> 01:16:29,440
out on the first session

2092
01:16:32,630 --> 01:16:31,520
and uh let my wife and daughter go in

2093
01:16:34,070 --> 01:16:32,640
because they're really interested in

2094
01:16:35,830 --> 01:16:34,080
this this kind of thing as well and

2095
01:16:37,189 --> 01:16:35,840
going ghost hunts

2096
01:16:40,390 --> 01:16:37,199
and uh

2097
01:16:41,830 --> 01:16:40,400
they told me that uh junk name some some

2098
01:16:43,750 --> 01:16:41,840
voice said joan

2099
01:16:45,189 --> 01:16:43,760
and then said jesse and jesse was a

2100
01:16:47,430 --> 01:16:45,199
deceased brother

2101
01:16:50,630 --> 01:16:47,440
and so that was rather odd so

2102
01:16:52,790 --> 01:16:50,640
i said okay i'll i'll go and attend uh

2103
01:16:54,149 --> 01:16:52,800
next time we have a gathering

2104
01:16:56,470 --> 01:16:54,159
and

2105
01:16:58,390 --> 01:16:56,480
so next time i'm sitting there in the

2106
01:16:59,990 --> 01:16:58,400
basement of an old supposedly slightly

2107
01:17:01,590 --> 01:17:00,000
haunted church over in fayetteville

2108
01:17:04,950 --> 01:17:01,600
tennessee

2109
01:17:06,870 --> 01:17:04,960
and we're doing this and i am thinking

2110
01:17:09,669 --> 01:17:06,880
of john keel

2111
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:09,679
well at the very end of it

2112
01:17:15,510 --> 01:17:11,760
uh at the very end of this

2113
01:17:17,350 --> 01:17:15,520
uh brett oldham says okay joan i heard

2114
01:17:20,149 --> 01:17:17,360
you know let's let's go ahead and see if

2115
01:17:21,990 --> 01:17:20,159
we can get your brother jesse

2116
01:17:24,390 --> 01:17:22,000
uh we're about to wind this up and he

2117
01:17:25,590 --> 01:17:24,400
even tells that on the tape

2118
01:17:29,030 --> 01:17:25,600
and

2119
01:17:32,550 --> 01:17:30,630
jesse are you there can you say

2120
01:17:34,709 --> 01:17:32,560
something to joan

2121
01:17:37,270 --> 01:17:34,719
now i'm paraphrasing here but

2122
01:17:38,550 --> 01:17:37,280
anyway instead of her brother coming

2123
01:17:40,229 --> 01:17:38,560
through it's

2124
01:17:44,149 --> 01:17:40,239
healed johnny

2125
01:17:46,149 --> 01:17:44,159
you know and uh

2126
01:17:47,030 --> 01:17:46,159
the thing is i was there i didn't hear

2127
01:17:50,550 --> 01:17:47,040
that

2128
01:17:52,229 --> 01:17:50,560
of cassette tapes and i was trying to

2129
01:17:54,470 --> 01:17:52,239
figure out what's here and this is like

2130
01:17:56,790 --> 01:17:54,480
five months six months later and i put

2131
01:17:58,390 --> 01:17:56,800
it in the recorder oh that's a ghost box

2132
01:17:59,669 --> 01:17:58,400
session i realized oh that's the first

2133
01:18:01,830 --> 01:17:59,679
one we did

2134
01:18:03,030 --> 01:18:01,840
and then i hear that that one little

2135
01:18:05,990 --> 01:18:03,040
sliver

2136
01:18:08,149 --> 01:18:06,000
and uh i'm like oh so anyway by that

2137
01:18:10,790 --> 01:18:08,159
time i'd ever heard john keel a number

2138
01:18:13,350 --> 01:18:10,800
of times coming through the ghost box

2139
01:18:16,550 --> 01:18:13,360
and suddenly i was uh

2140
01:18:18,390 --> 01:18:16,560
you know uh i had to get one

2141
01:18:19,430 --> 01:18:18,400
in my own hands now

2142
01:18:21,910 --> 01:18:19,440
uh

2143
01:18:24,790 --> 01:18:21,920
my daughter's husband

2144
01:18:27,910 --> 01:18:24,800
uh likes technological challenges so he

2145
01:18:31,030 --> 01:18:27,920
went to uh radio shack and he modified

2146
01:18:32,229 --> 01:18:31,040
one and we had us a ghost box in no time

2147
01:18:33,830 --> 01:18:32,239
and uh

2148
01:18:35,750 --> 01:18:33,840
found out that we could be sitting at

2149
01:18:38,070 --> 01:18:35,760
the house and

2150
01:18:40,790 --> 01:18:38,080
uh from time to time we'd get john key

2151
01:18:42,630 --> 01:18:40,800
one time got john keel brent

2152
01:18:45,030 --> 01:18:42,640
and then another voice says bur here and

2153
01:18:47,110 --> 01:18:45,040
bert was a psychiatrist who studied

2154
01:18:49,030 --> 01:18:47,120
parapsychology and ufos was a good

2155
01:18:51,350 --> 01:18:49,040
friend of john keel and i had

2156
01:18:53,350 --> 01:18:51,360
corresponded with him for

2157
01:18:54,870 --> 01:18:53,360
uh quite a number of years also for

2158
01:18:56,870 --> 01:18:54,880
several decades

2159
01:18:59,350 --> 01:18:56,880
and he had just died shortly after i

2160
01:19:01,270 --> 01:18:59,360
started this ghost box thing

2161
01:19:03,590 --> 01:19:01,280
and so

2162
01:19:06,790 --> 01:19:03,600
for a while we were hearing

2163
01:19:08,950 --> 01:19:06,800
dr swartz sounded like coming through

2164
01:19:11,030 --> 01:19:08,960
and we were hearing john keel so much

2165
01:19:12,470 --> 01:19:11,040
that uh my wife one time

2166
01:19:14,870 --> 01:19:12,480
said john

2167
01:19:15,990 --> 01:19:14,880
uh i would like to talk to some some of

2168
01:19:18,950 --> 01:19:16,000
my people

2169
01:19:20,709 --> 01:19:18,960
uh could you quit trying to hog

2170
01:19:22,550 --> 01:19:20,719
you know and then i didn't hear from

2171
01:19:25,270 --> 01:19:22,560
john keel too much after i was afraid

2172
01:19:27,350 --> 01:19:25,280
she kicked him off but you know just the

2173
01:19:30,070 --> 01:19:27,360
the idea i mean it was so clear and i

2174
01:19:32,070 --> 01:19:30,080
even shared some of the audio with uh

2175
01:19:35,669 --> 01:19:32,080
dan drazen who was mentioned several

2176
01:19:37,590 --> 01:19:35,679
times in the mothman prophecy dan was a

2177
01:19:39,030 --> 01:19:37,600
documentary film producer he had just

2178
01:19:40,790 --> 01:19:39,040
seen a ufo

2179
01:19:41,910 --> 01:19:40,800
back in 67

2180
01:19:43,189 --> 01:19:41,920
and

2181
01:19:45,830 --> 01:19:43,199
he was a little interested in the

2182
01:19:48,229 --> 01:19:45,840
subject and a friend of his said john

2183
01:19:50,790 --> 01:19:48,239
keel because they both lived in new york

2184
01:19:52,550 --> 01:19:50,800
city is doing a talk on ufos you just

2185
01:19:55,030 --> 01:19:52,560
saw and wanted to go talk with him so he

2186
01:19:56,709 --> 01:19:55,040
went talk with him ended up they they

2187
01:19:57,910 --> 01:19:56,719
hit it off they became friends he

2188
01:20:00,790 --> 01:19:57,920
traveled to

2189
01:20:02,950 --> 01:20:00,800
point pleasant west virginia four times

2190
01:20:05,350 --> 01:20:02,960
in 1967

2191
01:20:07,110 --> 01:20:05,360
along with keel to point pleasant west

2192
01:20:09,430 --> 01:20:07,120
virginia interviewed some of the you

2193
01:20:10,550 --> 01:20:09,440
know talked with witnesses saw phenomena

2194
01:20:12,629 --> 01:20:10,560
himself

2195
01:20:15,110 --> 01:20:12,639
he was even this is this is mothman

2196
01:20:18,390 --> 01:20:15,120
location right just this is mock man

2197
01:20:20,390 --> 01:20:18,400
location yeah yeah and and you know he

2198
01:20:22,390 --> 01:20:20,400
he said the voice actually sounds kind

2199
01:20:25,189 --> 01:20:22,400
of like john keel to me he says you know

2200
01:20:27,590 --> 01:20:25,199
um and he has he also by the way he has

2201
01:20:29,030 --> 01:20:27,600
since produced a documentary on evps and

2202
01:20:30,310 --> 01:20:29,040
such in a

2203
01:20:33,189 --> 01:20:30,320
video called

2204
01:20:34,790 --> 01:20:33,199
uh calling earth uh so just you know

2205
01:20:36,390 --> 01:20:34,800
anybody that's interested is quite a

2206
01:20:38,470 --> 01:20:36,400
quite a good video

2207
01:20:40,070 --> 01:20:38,480
uh and that's how i tracked him down was

2208
01:20:43,270 --> 01:20:40,080
you know i was watching one of his

2209
01:20:45,110 --> 01:20:43,280
videos and uh oh that i've been on the

2210
01:20:46,470 --> 01:20:45,120
radar for this guy for quite some time

2211
01:20:50,149 --> 01:20:46,480
turned out this is the guy so i

2212
01:20:52,870 --> 01:20:50,159
interviewed him for the book as well and

2213
01:20:54,629 --> 01:20:52,880
he had seen ufos he saw he was

2214
01:20:56,870 --> 01:20:54,639
he saw one of the classic encounters

2215
01:20:58,870 --> 01:20:56,880
described by keel where they're all

2216
01:21:00,390 --> 01:20:58,880
seeing a ufo

2217
01:21:02,550 --> 01:21:00,400
i think they're standing at an airport

2218
01:21:04,070 --> 01:21:02,560
around point pleasant and it goes behind

2219
01:21:05,510 --> 01:21:04,080
a cloud

2220
01:21:07,510 --> 01:21:05,520
and they're waiting for it to come out

2221
01:21:09,350 --> 01:21:07,520
the other side but instead of

2222
01:21:11,910 --> 01:21:09,360
the ufo

2223
01:21:14,470 --> 01:21:11,920
it's a noisy airplane

2224
01:21:16,790 --> 01:21:14,480
that comes out of the cloud

2225
01:21:19,830 --> 01:21:16,800
and uh keel mentioned it in the mothman

2226
01:21:20,950 --> 01:21:19,840
prophecies too you know and so anyway uh

2227
01:21:23,510 --> 01:21:20,960
that's

2228
01:21:26,149 --> 01:21:23,520
but i've had some some very interesting

2229
01:21:28,629 --> 01:21:26,159
to me anyway evp responses it seems

2230
01:21:29,990 --> 01:21:28,639
intelligent it's interactive but it's

2231
01:21:32,709 --> 01:21:30,000
like it's

2232
01:21:34,149 --> 01:21:32,719
it never tells me anything

2233
01:21:38,550 --> 01:21:34,159
that's

2234
01:21:41,830 --> 01:21:38,560
knows it's interacting with me it's

2235
01:21:43,910 --> 01:21:41,840
teasing me like and after four trickster

2236
01:21:46,149 --> 01:21:43,920
stuff again yeah yeah yeah after after

2237
01:21:47,910 --> 01:21:46,159
about four years of just being

2238
01:21:50,149 --> 01:21:47,920
like doing two sessions a week and then

2239
01:21:52,070 --> 01:21:50,159
spending hours going through the audio

2240
01:21:55,510 --> 01:21:52,080
it's like okay

2241
01:21:57,830 --> 01:21:55,520
i'm gonna do this uh but not as ex

2242
01:21:59,510 --> 01:21:57,840
obsessively as i have because there are

2243
01:22:01,350 --> 01:21:59,520
cases to investigate you know i got to

2244
01:22:04,149 --> 01:22:01,360
quit

2245
01:22:06,629 --> 01:22:04,159
and keel himself even talked about such

2246
01:22:08,550 --> 01:22:06,639
things wrote about such things he uh he

2247
01:22:10,390 --> 01:22:08,560
knew an instance where someone had been

2248
01:22:11,830 --> 01:22:10,400
with a psychic medium and this voice

2249
01:22:13,669 --> 01:22:11,840
came through and said it was exactly

2250
01:22:16,629 --> 01:22:13,679
like this person he knew

2251
01:22:18,790 --> 01:22:16,639
but kiel said nah nah it's it's a it's a

2252
01:22:21,750 --> 01:22:18,800
trickster phenomenal they can mimic

2253
01:22:24,149 --> 01:22:21,760
our voices so i can't say that this is

2254
01:22:26,070 --> 01:22:24,159
john keel i'd like to say you know maybe

2255
01:22:29,510 --> 01:22:26,080
but oh one of the things that did sound

2256
01:22:31,430 --> 01:22:29,520
like john keele's voice was uh one time

2257
01:22:33,669 --> 01:22:31,440
knowing how keel

2258
01:22:36,229 --> 01:22:33,679
uh told people exactly what he thought

2259
01:22:38,629 --> 01:22:36,239
he was straight he shot straight he

2260
01:22:40,790 --> 01:22:38,639
didn't mince words and uh there were

2261
01:22:43,669 --> 01:22:40,800
people he really argued with in the

2262
01:22:45,030 --> 01:22:43,679
field so i said we're gonna play a game

2263
01:22:46,790 --> 01:22:45,040
john uh

2264
01:22:48,390 --> 01:22:46,800
i'm gonna mention some names and you

2265
01:22:50,229 --> 01:22:48,400
tell me what you think

2266
01:22:53,350 --> 01:22:50,239
so i deliberately selected some that i

2267
01:22:55,510 --> 01:22:53,360
knew would be juicy and uh but what i

2268
01:22:57,669 --> 01:22:55,520
didn't know was when i played the tape

2269
01:22:59,510 --> 01:22:57,679
back at the beginning

2270
01:23:01,669 --> 01:22:59,520
i said you want to hear what you'll say

2271
01:23:03,270 --> 01:23:01,679
about him this voice that to me sounded

2272
01:23:04,950 --> 01:23:03,280
like john keel because i talked with him

2273
01:23:06,950 --> 01:23:04,960
on the phone some

2274
01:23:07,910 --> 01:23:06,960
and it said what i'd like to say about

2275
01:23:10,390 --> 01:23:07,920
you

2276
01:23:11,350 --> 01:23:10,400
and

2277
01:23:13,750 --> 01:23:11,360
uh

2278
01:23:16,709 --> 01:23:13,760
it wasn't really a class a recording but

2279
01:23:20,149 --> 01:23:16,719
i had my headphones on and i i heard it

2280
01:23:21,830 --> 01:23:20,159
i heard it you know and uh to me it was

2281
01:23:23,669 --> 01:23:21,840
uh that was a pretty

2282
01:23:25,990 --> 01:23:23,679
clear enough that i could hear it and

2283
01:23:27,110 --> 01:23:26,000
identify it as sounding like his voice

2284
01:23:31,830 --> 01:23:27,120
and

2285
01:23:34,470 --> 01:23:31,840
wow but anyway

2286
01:23:37,350 --> 01:23:34,480
hey brent final question can't resist

2287
01:23:40,709 --> 01:23:37,360
you know from a spiritual perspective

2288
01:23:43,350 --> 01:23:40,719
you can get this from the christian

2289
01:23:45,830 --> 01:23:43,360
deep thinkers as well as kind of

2290
01:23:48,229 --> 01:23:45,840
more into yogic and non-dual but kind of

2291
01:23:50,390 --> 01:23:48,239
not attached to anything i just but

2292
01:23:52,629 --> 01:23:50,400
don't mess with this stuff you don't one

2293
01:23:54,390 --> 01:23:52,639
you don't need this stuff it's just a

2294
01:23:55,510 --> 01:23:54,400
distraction

2295
01:23:57,750 --> 01:23:55,520
it's

2296
01:23:59,910 --> 01:23:57,760
i'm not saying that i'm saying what do

2297
01:24:02,470 --> 01:23:59,920
you think about that what do you think

2298
01:24:04,790 --> 01:24:02,480
about you know

2299
01:24:06,390 --> 01:24:04,800
the stillness within is really all we

2300
01:24:09,270 --> 01:24:06,400
need and

2301
01:24:11,510 --> 01:24:09,280
everything it like that is a distraction

2302
01:24:13,910 --> 01:24:11,520
is fundamentally going to remove you

2303
01:24:14,709 --> 01:24:13,920
from the path what you really got to do

2304
01:24:15,669 --> 01:24:14,719
is

2305
01:24:17,270 --> 01:24:15,679
you know

2306
01:24:19,590 --> 01:24:17,280
go hug your

2307
01:24:21,510 --> 01:24:19,600
daughter go ahead to your grandkids be

2308
01:24:24,070 --> 01:24:21,520
nice to people

2309
01:24:25,510 --> 01:24:24,080
love everyone tell the truth and

2310
01:24:27,189 --> 01:24:25,520
of course we're fascinated with all that

2311
01:24:28,830 --> 01:24:27,199
stuff what do you think about that in

2312
01:24:31,590 --> 01:24:28,840
general as a

2313
01:24:34,310 --> 01:24:31,600
spiritual principle are we being

2314
01:24:37,350 --> 01:24:34,320
distracted from

2315
01:24:39,910 --> 01:24:37,360
what really matters

2316
01:24:42,310 --> 01:24:39,920
yeah i think sometimes you know that's

2317
01:24:44,629 --> 01:24:42,320
the positive side of this some people

2318
01:24:48,790 --> 01:24:44,639
get and they the people that are

2319
01:24:52,950 --> 01:24:50,950
people like myself and and

2320
01:24:55,669 --> 01:24:52,960
and like you i'm sure we we like to

2321
01:24:57,350 --> 01:24:55,679
analyze you know it deeper there's some

2322
01:25:00,070 --> 01:24:57,360
people that become like

2323
01:25:02,070 --> 01:25:00,080
faith healers uh very spiritual and

2324
01:25:04,950 --> 01:25:02,080
they're always saying

2325
01:25:05,750 --> 01:25:04,960
and doing really positive things and you

2326
01:25:10,870 --> 01:25:05,760
know

2327
01:25:13,270 --> 01:25:10,880
uh i was in the navy and i sometimes use

2328
01:25:15,830 --> 01:25:13,280
you know cuss like a sailor you know but

2329
01:25:16,629 --> 01:25:15,840
it's it's it's

2330
01:25:19,030 --> 01:25:16,639
uh

2331
01:25:20,790 --> 01:25:19,040
yeah it's you'd like to give a clear

2332
01:25:22,550 --> 01:25:20,800
message say this is where you got to go

2333
01:25:24,550 --> 01:25:22,560
and this is what you got to do you know

2334
01:25:26,709 --> 01:25:24,560
it's what gurus and

2335
01:25:29,189 --> 01:25:26,719
religious leaders uh shamans are

2336
01:25:31,510 --> 01:25:29,199
supposed to educate their their tribe

2337
01:25:33,189 --> 01:25:31,520
their clan their their people but at the

2338
01:25:36,310 --> 01:25:33,199
end i remember keel was being

2339
01:25:37,669 --> 01:25:36,320
interviewed uh in 2003 when he attended

2340
01:25:39,350 --> 01:25:37,679
the mothman

2341
01:25:41,750 --> 01:25:39,360
festival in west virginia and someone

2342
01:25:43,750 --> 01:25:41,760
asked him i think that question he says

2343
01:25:45,030 --> 01:25:43,760
something like i think sometimes you

2344
01:25:46,629 --> 01:25:45,040
know

2345
01:25:48,470 --> 01:25:46,639
people are better off if they don't even

2346
01:25:49,270 --> 01:25:48,480
get into this stuff

2347
01:25:50,790 --> 01:25:49,280
and

2348
01:25:53,030 --> 01:25:50,800
i remember some

2349
01:25:56,070 --> 01:25:53,040
keel fans who were like why did you say

2350
01:25:58,229 --> 01:25:56,080
that this is great stuff i love it

2351
01:26:00,310 --> 01:25:58,239
but yeah sometimes i think if you know

2352
01:26:01,830 --> 01:26:00,320
maybe it was

2353
01:26:03,030 --> 01:26:01,840
it might be better

2354
01:26:05,030 --> 01:26:03,040
just to

2355
01:26:06,450 --> 01:26:05,040
try to embrace a

2356
01:26:07,750 --> 01:26:06,460
love for people and

2357
01:26:10,870 --> 01:26:07,760
[Music]

2358
01:26:14,310 --> 01:26:10,880
do things with integrity and honesty and

2359
01:26:16,229 --> 01:26:14,320
and but it's i've just been so

2360
01:26:18,629 --> 01:26:16,239
anchored into this

2361
01:26:21,430 --> 01:26:18,639
this subject and looking for

2362
01:26:23,350 --> 01:26:21,440
the meaning and the and the

2363
01:26:25,430 --> 01:26:23,360
connecting the dots

2364
01:26:27,750 --> 01:26:25,440
uh sometimes i i think i'd i'd almost

2365
01:26:29,590 --> 01:26:27,760
like to depart from here maybe

2366
01:26:30,870 --> 01:26:29,600
work on science fiction something where

2367
01:26:32,950 --> 01:26:30,880
i could have

2368
01:26:33,750 --> 01:26:32,960
finally even though it's fictional you

2369
01:26:38,790 --> 01:26:33,760
know

2370
01:26:40,390 --> 01:26:38,800
well

2371
01:26:42,950 --> 01:26:40,400
yeah i think

2372
01:26:46,470 --> 01:26:42,960
i think as i said at the very beginning

2373
01:26:48,629 --> 01:26:46,480
it's hard for me not to believe that

2374
01:26:51,669 --> 01:26:48,639
you're not doing exactly what you're

2375
01:26:54,709 --> 01:26:51,679
supposed to do i mean 14 years old

2376
01:26:57,270 --> 01:26:54,719
that you know john that just is

2377
01:26:58,550 --> 01:26:57,280
too remarkable for me at well

2378
01:27:00,390 --> 01:26:58,560
at 14

2379
01:27:02,070 --> 01:27:00,400
and and before that i mean i was into

2380
01:27:03,350 --> 01:27:02,080
all kinds of things and i was like

2381
01:27:05,830 --> 01:27:03,360
sometimes it felt like i was in a

2382
01:27:08,390 --> 01:27:05,840
different thing each week you know

2383
01:27:10,870 --> 01:27:08,400
but i was always kind of interested in

2384
01:27:13,030 --> 01:27:10,880
i mean the year before ufos they'd been

2385
01:27:14,629 --> 01:27:13,040
in the news a lot i look out the sky

2386
01:27:16,390 --> 01:27:14,639
hoping i might catch one i was

2387
01:27:19,430 --> 01:27:16,400
interested in astronomy i was interested

2388
01:27:21,110 --> 01:27:19,440
in dinosaurs i was interested in

2389
01:27:21,990 --> 01:27:21,120
all kinds of things i even wanted to be

2390
01:27:23,669 --> 01:27:22,000
uh

2391
01:27:26,070 --> 01:27:23,679
i even liked the idea of maybe having a

2392
01:27:30,390 --> 01:27:26,080
carnival you know just

2393
01:27:33,030 --> 01:27:30,400
but for some reason along came

2394
01:27:34,950 --> 01:27:33,040
that book by frank edwards and i decided

2395
01:27:38,229 --> 01:27:34,960
i'm going to become what i later found

2396
01:27:40,310 --> 01:27:38,239
out was a ufologist whatever that is

2397
01:27:44,790 --> 01:27:40,320
but anyways here i am all these years

2398
01:27:47,750 --> 01:27:44,800
later 70 years old still hammering away

2399
01:27:50,070 --> 01:27:47,760
as john keel said this can of worms

2400
01:27:52,390 --> 01:27:50,080
well it's been just awesome having you

2401
01:27:54,790 --> 01:27:52,400
on brent and i really appreciate it

2402
01:27:56,870 --> 01:27:54,800
well thank you uh for having me on and

2403
01:27:58,149 --> 01:27:56,880
uh and i've i've already thanked bob

2404
01:27:59,750 --> 01:27:58,159
davis for

2405
01:28:00,870 --> 01:27:59,760
uh putting my name in the hat there with

2406
01:28:03,669 --> 01:28:00,880
you so

2407
01:28:08,149 --> 01:28:05,430
thanks again to brent rains for joining

2408
01:28:09,910 --> 01:28:08,159
me today on skeptico

2409
01:28:11,990 --> 01:28:09,920
i know it kind of bounced around a lot

2410
01:28:14,709 --> 01:28:12,000
in this interview so it might be hard to

2411
01:28:17,830 --> 01:28:14,719
pin down a question but if i did i'd

2412
01:28:19,990 --> 01:28:17,840
kind of go back to the shaman native

2413
01:28:23,030 --> 01:28:20,000
american thing and

2414
01:28:23,910 --> 01:28:23,040
just ask what your thoughts are in terms

2415
01:28:29,270 --> 01:28:23,920
of

2416
01:28:31,350 --> 01:28:29,280
knowledge about

2417
01:28:33,430 --> 01:28:31,360
e.t about ufo

2418
01:28:36,390 --> 01:28:33,440
because it comes in hot it comes in

2419
01:28:38,950 --> 01:28:36,400
strange it doesn't fit and then in some

2420
01:28:40,709 --> 01:28:38,960
ways it does fit with a lot of the other

2421
01:28:43,910 --> 01:28:40,719
narratives that are getting

2422
01:28:46,390 --> 01:28:43,920
forced down our throat right now

2423
01:28:48,550 --> 01:28:46,400
so if you're into a kind of level three

2424
01:28:50,950 --> 01:28:48,560
discussion on that

2425
01:28:53,110 --> 01:28:50,960
come join me on the skeptical forum or

2426
01:28:56,229 --> 01:28:53,120
track me down and let me know your

2427
01:28:57,910 --> 01:28:56,239
thoughts as always love to hear from you

2428
01:28:59,189 --> 01:28:57,920
until next time

2429
01:29:01,390 --> 01:28:59,199
take care

2430
01:29:14,970 --> 01:29:01,400
and bye for now